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Grant Thornton’s CBIZ Deal Tests Accounting’s Guardrails

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Grant Thornton plans to spend about $5 billion to acquire CBIZ in what David Leary called “the largest accounting deal in over 25 years.” The combination would create the fifth-largest accounting firm in the world. Yet its expected $7.5 billion in global revenue would still be far below KPMG, the smallest Big Four firm, at nearly $40 billion.

That story is one of several reality checks in Episode 499 of The Accounting Podcast. David and co-host Blake Oliver examine how private equity, artificial intelligence, labor shortages, audit failures, cybersecurity threats, and politics are reshaping accounting.

The profession can clearly grow faster. But will its guardrails (sound integration, audit quality, data security, professional judgment, and fair tax enforcement) keep up?

Private equity can buy scale, but integration comes later

New Mountain Capital acquired a majority stake in Grant Thornton in 2024. It’s investing more money to support the CBIZ purchase. Because CBIZ is publicly traded, the deal also offers an unusual view into how the market values a large accounting firm.

The $55-per-share purchase price represents about a 54% premium over CBIZ’s 30-day weighted average. David noted that the stock began rising before the announcement and questioned how that looked with private equity involved. Blake pointed to a July letter from activist investor Reference Equity that urged CBIZ to stop repurchasing shares and return to mergers and acquisitions. That letter gave the market a public signal that a deal might be coming. It wasn’t necessarily evidence of insider activity.

The larger concern is integration. CBIZ’s earlier acquisition of Marcum cost more than expected and led to client attrition and revenue misses. Management projected only 2% to 5% growth for 2026. As Blake described the likely private equity strategy, “Package these firms up together, make them bigger, more attractive, and then go back with an IPO.”

But scale doesn’t solve the profession’s other risks.

Audit failures and cyber threats put trust at risk

The UK Financial Reporting Council fined PwC about $4.4 million for serious problems in its 2019 and 2020 audits of Babcock International Group. The regulator cited failures in professional skepticism and audit evidence involving cash pooling, goodwill impairment, and an overseas contract.

Among other issues, Babcock reported cash and overdraft balances net instead of gross. PwC didn’t identify the treatment or test whether it followed the relevant standard. The financial statements also lacked disclosures about the cash-pooling arrangements. The regulator found no dishonesty, deliberate misconduct, or recklessness, but said the audits still failed to meet professional standards.

Cybersecurity raises a related concern. The hacking group ShinyHunters claimed it breached EY and threatened to release client data. EY didn’t confirm the breach, and the hosts found no sign that data had been released after the group’s deadline. Still, the alleged access to Jira, GitHub, Azure, passwords, and sensitive client information shows the possible stakes. If attackers obtain code or credentials, they may gain paths into client systems as well.

Protecting that trust requires experienced professionals, and those professionals are hard to find.

Accounting’s missing middle is getting squeezed

Controllers and assistant controllers are the hardest finance roles to recruit, according to 44% of respondents in a 2026 talent study by Controllers Council. These jobs require technical accounting knowledge, leadership, business judgment, technology skills, and the ability to influence executives. Meanwhile, 61% of respondents reported a corporate finance and accounting talent shortage, up from 46% the prior year.

The career ladder is also flattening. According to salary data from Accounting Today, in New York, associates averaged about $105,000 while seniors averaged $108,000, a difference of only 3%. Ontario showed a similarly narrow gap. Blake suggested firms raised entry-level salaries to attract recruits without increasing senior pay at the same pace.

“The people in the middle are getting lost in this,” David said. Offshoring and AI may add more pressure to those roles, even as firms need experienced managers and controllers more than ever.

That tension makes the way firms use AI especially important.

AI should support judgment, not replace learning

A KPMG survey of more than 1,000 senior finance leaders found that AI’s biggest gains were in decision-making rather than simple efficiency. Seventy percent said AI improved decision quality, 71% reported faster decisions, and 64% cited better forecasting accuracy.

But another survey found that 39% of workers believed overreliance on AI was weakening their abilities. Among Gen Z workers, the figure rose to 46%. Half of workers said they depended on AI too much, while 30% said they couldn’t function without it.

“If you’ve never done the work, how do you evaluate the work?” Blake said, summarizing the problem. Junior professionals need to struggle with the work, make mistakes, and build the knowledge required to review AI output.

The hosts argued that businesses should connect AI agents to dependable systems they already use rather than trying to rebuild tools like QuickBooks, Bill.com, or PandaDoc. Blake’s priority is using AI first to improve services and revenue, second to avoid unnecessary hiring, and only then to reduce software costs.

The same need for guardrails extends beyond firms and into tax enforcement.

Tax rules lose credibility when enforcement looks uneven

President Trump said he might withdraw Todd Blanche’s nomination for attorney general rather than accept written limits on a disputed IRS settlement. Senators John Cornyn and Thom Tillis wanted its immunity provisions limited to IRS enforcement and excluded from Justice Department matters. Blanche also testified that he initially did not know who drafted the broad language he signed.

Trump appealed after U.S. District Judge Kathleen Williams found that the settlement had “no viable basis in law or fact” and barred its use in future proceedings. David offered an alternative: If the Trump family won’t face IRS audits, publish the tax returns and let the public review them.

Growth needs guardrails

The profession can’t measure progress only through revenue, deal size, speed, or headcount savings. The Grant Thornton–CBIZ deal shows the challenge of integrating firms under private equity. PwC’s fine and the alleged EY breach show the risks to audit quality and client data. The talent and AI stories show why firms must keep developing human judgment.

For the full discussion, listen to episode 499 of The Accounting Podcast.

How a Solo CPA Turned a Seven-Hour Tax Workpaper Into a One-Hour Job

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“Anybody who says they’ve built autonomous AI in accounting or finance is full of crap. Nobody has figured out how to do that yet.”

That’s how Blake Oliver opens Episode 497 of The Accounting Podcast, and it sets the tone for the whole show. Blake and co-host David Leary spend the first half on tax policy and platform drama, then spend the second half talking to Sam Leon, founder of the Millennial CPA, a one-person, tech-enabled tax practice in Richmond, Virginia. Accounting Today named the firm to its 2026 Best Firms for Technology list.

Put the two halves together, and you get a clear argument that AI isn’t taking accounting work away. It’s moving it, and where it lands is professional judgment. Automating the prep stage pushes the bottleneck onto the scarcest people in any firm: the managers, controllers, and partners who have to review everything the machine produces. Three threads carry that case:

  1. The “verification tax” and what the jobs data really shows
  2. Why older platforms and workflows are much harder to replace than the market believes
  3. Sam’s practice, which proves the payoff comes from automating everything around judgment rather than the judgment itself

The “Verification Tax”: Why the Bottleneck Just Moves

The first thread starts with a simple problem. Someone still has to check the work. Blake points to reporting by Accounting Today technology editor Chris Gaetano, who found that AI’s promised productivity gains in finance are getting eaten up by the time it takes to check, explain, and govern AI outputs. A recent Sage survey found that nearly half of finance professionals spend more than 15 hours a week on verification, and 19% spend more than 30 hours. Sage calls this the “verification tax.” Only 9% of respondents plan to give AI broad control over transactional finance. The profession isn’t letting these tools run on their own.

“We’re just shoving the bottleneck to a different spot,” David points out. “The bottleneck in theory was the data entry. Now we’ve moved it to the review of the data.” Blake takes it one step further. Speed up the prep work, and you simply pile more onto the reviewers. And there aren’t enough qualified reviewers to handle it. As he says, “We don’t have enough managers and directors and partners. We don’t have enough controllers and CFOs.”

Blake is careful not to dismiss the tools because he feels AI sharpens his own judgment. “It allows me to make decisions faster, to figure things out quicker. But I still have to think a lot.” That thinking takes skill and experience, which is exactly why you can’t automate the review layer away.

The Jobs Data Contradicts the “AI Replaces Accountants” Story

If review is the real constraint, then firms should need more skilled people, not fewer. The data the hosts cite says they do. Research from Ramp and Revelio Labs tracked AI spending and workforce records at nearly 22,000 U.S. companies from 2021 to 2026. Firms that spent more on AI grew total headcount by an average of 10% in the two years after rollout. The heaviest investors expanded entry-level hiring by 12%.

David adds a report from Indeed’s Hiring Lab showing that mentions of AI in job titles and descriptions have more than tripled since 2022. On top of that, 63% of AI-titled roles now sit outside tech companies. AI is becoming a required skill in ordinary, nontechnical jobs. The hosts call this shift up-leveling. As Blake puts it, “The workers we need are higher level.”

Sticky Systems and Technical Debt: Why Xero and QuickBooks Aren’t “Toast”

The same durability argument applies to the software underneath the work. David walks through the drama at Xero. Investors in New Zealand and Australia are uncomfortable with the large pay package for its U.S. CEO. This week, she sold all her remaining shares for $2.2 million to cover a tax bill. The stock is down roughly 58% over the past year. All of it feeds a story that AI-native startups will bury the incumbents.

Blake thinks the market has it wrong. To believe that story, you have to believe small businesses will start coding their own accounting software. He tried it himself. “Yes, it’s doable, but the problem is then you have to review so much, and everything looks so good that it’s hard to know if it’s right.” You need rails, or a general ledger like QuickBooks or Xero, so that whoever handles the tax work can trust the numbers. Both hosts argue the incumbents could actually win, because AI removes the hardest part of building software: the user interface. Expose the ledger through MCP connections, and users can work through simple conversation while the trusted structure stays in place.

Then David shares a story that illustrates how “sticky” legacy technology can be. A Texas filtration company, Sparkler Filters, ran IBM’s 402 accounting machine (a punch-card system introduced in July 1948) all the way until 2020 because replacing it meant retraining staff, disrupting decades of process, and risking errors.

Blake turns that warning on AI itself. Workflows he built two years ago started breaking as models were retired and integrations changed, and he’s the only person at his company who can fix them. “You’re going to end up spending on a team that can maintain those tools. You are now a developer or an engineer.” Call it technical debt. It’s a cost almost nobody budgets for.

Sam Leon’s Firm Automates Everything Before Judgment

That brings us to someone who has built a whole practice around this idea. Sam Leon spent 13 years in tax before going solo. He left because being truly tech-enabled isn’t something you can get signed off on inside a 20-person tax department.

His first idea, a year ago, was to have AI agent A and AI agent B play different firm roles. He dropped it. The technology “was not quite there,” and it still meant a lot of copying and pasting. So he flipped the problem around. Before anyone enters a single number into a return, three to seven hours of work has already happened. Automate that.

It starts with a custom smart intake form designed to scope engagements accurately and avoid the chronic over- and under-scoping he watched at earlier firms. A good call leads to a templated engagement letter in Ignition, which kicks off automated billing. A Slack bot he built populates his CRM and opens a client profile in TaxDome. Claude generates the list of expected documents, the client portal opens, and documents flow in.

Next comes the AI preparer. Sam keeps a Claude project folder for each client, holding redacted documents, and runs a conversational, deliberately custom process that produces an Excel workpaper organized by schedule. Claude understands that there are hundreds of possible schedules. What it doesn’t understand is why a given number belongs in a certain place. So Sam gives it guardrails, or general guidelines for where investment income or a home sale should land.

The AI reviewer is the reverse, and he set it up as its own standardized project because a review runs the same way every time. It performs a three-way match: the current return, the prior-year return, and the pile of source documents. The documents answer “are the numbers right?” The prior year answers “did we miss something?”

The results are concrete. A C corp workpaper that used to take six or seven hours now takes about an hour of back-and-forth. A two-hour individual workpaper takes roughly 15 minutes. That’s a 5x-plus boost on the exact work that used to eat up tax season.

Sam is firm about the caveat, “Don’t try this at home unless you’ve been a tax preparer for a while.” He still keys the numbers into the return by hand, which doubles as a check. AI is a preparer and reviewer assistant, not a replacement.

The Economics: Price for Expertise, Not Hours Saved

If AI cuts the work in half, why not cut the fees too? Sam doesn’t. His $200-a-month Claude Max subscription is, as Blake puts it, a no-brainer against the hours it saves per return. And it isn’t even his biggest line item. Practice management, intake software, and the tools he tries out and cancels account for more of the roughly 70% of his budget that goes to technology.

He has never billed by the hour. He prices fixed packages by scope, complexity, and judgment, and he recently raised his minimum to $1,500 from about $1,250. A corporation with an international subsidiary and three international partners may take less time to key in, but “there’s still a lot of judgment, and there’s still a lot of professional experience going into it.” No client has asked for an AI discount.

His software, TaxWeave, follows the same logic. It consolidates client information from email, document portals, cloud storage, and team notes into a single view of where each client stands. It solves the “master Google spreadsheet” problem his old firms could never quit, even after buying practice management software, and layers agent actions on top. It attacks the chaos around the work, not the judgment inside it. Having reached the limits of what he can build as a self-described novice coder, he’s brought on a software engineer.

The Unglamorous Playbook

From the verification tax to punch-card machines to Sam Leon’s workpapers and price list, episode 497 keeps making the same point from different angles. AI relocates accounting work onto professional judgment rather than removing it.

The playbook is durable and distinctly unglamorous. Aggressively automate intake, organization, and comparison. Budget for growing review and maintenance burdens. And price for expertise rather than for the hours you just saved. Your value is in the trust and judgment layered on top of the data, not in the data handling itself.

Hear Sam’s full end-to-end walkthrough, plus Blake and David’s complete analysis, in Episode 497 of The Accounting Podcast.

“I Don’t Deserve This” and Other Lies We Tell Ourselves During Awards Season

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Imagine finding out you’ve been nominated for one of the most prestigious recognition lists in your profession. Thousands of ProAdvisors across the globe, and someone thought you belonged among the best. But your first thought is, “I don’t deserve this. I’m not good enough. I don’t know enough.”

That was Questian Telka’s immediate reaction when she learned she’d been nominated for the Insightful Accountant Top 100 ProAdvisor list. And the kicker is, at that very moment, she was preparing to deliver a session on imposter syndrome at a major industry conference.

How do we know this? Because Nancy McClelland shared the actual WhatsApp text thread on Episode 29 of She Counts, the real-talk podcast for women in accounting. In this episode, Nancy is joined by guest co-host Melissa Miller Furgeson, stepping in for Questian. This topic is near and dear to Melissa’s heart, having applied for the Top 100 ProAdvisor list for five years before making it.

Together, Nancy and Melissa pull back the curtain on the messy, complicated emotions that swirl around professional awards. The desire. The dread. The jealousy. The shame about feeling envious. All of it, out in the open.

 

The tug-of-war between wanting recognition and dreading rejection

Let’s go back to that WhatsApp thread – it captures something many women in accounting feel but rarely say out-loud.

Questian’s first instinct after her nomination was not to tell anyone. “I am embarrassed even to share it because I know I won’t make the list,” she texted Nancy. She was already preparing her public disclaimer before celebrating the achievement.

Nancy admitted she wasn’t going to post about her nomination either. Then she saw a colleague share theirs and watched friends rally around them with congratulations. Nancy felt sad nobody was lifting her up before catching herself: “I hadn’t even given them the opportunity.”

Nancy’s reframe stopped the spiral. “Literally, not a single soul will see the final list of who wins and think, ‘Oh, of course Questian and Nancy didn’t win. I figured they wouldn’t.'” The fear of losing publicly is a movie playing in our own heads, not in public theaters.

What makes this fear even more frustrating is the enormous amount of work these applications require. As Nancy explained, most of them demand extensive documentation. The Insightful Accountant application requires you to track all your continuing education throughout the year, not just CPE. “It’s a huge amount of work when you’re applying,” Nancy said, “and it’s actually a huge amount of work throughout the course of the year.”

When the system fails you, you have to advocate for yourself

Both Nancy and Melissa experienced something that adds another layer to the vulnerability: system glitches that initially left them off finalist lists.

In 2024, Nancy discovered she wasn’t on the Top 100 ProAdvisor finalist list despite completing the grueling application. When she reached out to Insightful Accountant, their system showed she hadn’t submitted. Nancy knew better. She’d kept records of her answers because the application was “very difficult.” They added her name to the list, but at the bottom, out of alphabetical order, where fewer people would notice and be able to vote for her.

The same thing happened to Melissa in 2025. The system lost her application, but showed she’d spent significant time on it. They let her use points from her 2024 application, adding her name… also at the bottom of the list.

“I am really proud of both of us for being brave and following up,” Nancy said, “and finding out it was a system glitch rather than a failure on our part.”

This adds another dimension to the courage required: not just applying, but advocating for yourself when things go wrong.

The middle school energy nobody wants to admit

“You want recognition, but you fear rejection,” Nancy said, naming the tension directly. “You want visibility, but you fear judgment.” Then she compared the entire awards cycle to middle-school popularity dynamics.

Melissa said she’d literally discussed this exact parallel with her therapist that day.

Nancy’s philosophy is, “We don’t grow out of the people we were when we were younger. We just grow into a different version of that person.” The worry about belonging never fully disappears. Awards season dials it right back up.

Nancy illustrated this with a story about discovering Financial Cent’s Top 30 Accounting and Bookkeeping Firm Owners to Follow list. Her emotional journey included:

  1. Opening it, excited for recommendations
  2. Feeling proud seeing friends on it
  3. Realizing she wasn’t listed
  4. Spiraling into jealousy and shame
  5. Feeling shame about feeling jealous

She made herself breathe and refocus on gratitude. When she returned to finish reading, there she was at number 30. She’d spiraled through five emotions before finishing the article.

“Happy-jealous-proud should be a word,” Nancy suggested.

Even successes can trigger hesitation. Nancy was thrilled to make the Forbes Best-in-State list this year. It’s an award where you don’t even know you’re being considered until you win. But she’s been hesitant to share it because Forbes charges a fee to use its logo and name in promotional materials. “I’m kind of waiting to figure out how that works exactly before I tell people about it,” she admitted.

Breaking the shame spiral through honesty

Melissa was candid about jealousy. “It’s so real and natural and something I feel more often than I care to admit.”

She reframes her mindset by saying, “We want other people to do well,” Melissa said. “We love our colleagues and friends, but we also want a little bit for ourselves.”

Nancy’s therapist keeps it even simpler. When Nancy worries about being jealous, her therapist asks, “Do you want what they have?” When the answer is yes, “Well, that’s just a fact.”

No moral judgment. No character flaw. Just information.

The power of community courage

If these feelings are universal, the solution isn’t to eliminate them. It’s to act despite them, together.

Nancy organized nomination sessions for Ask a CPA members. People showed up thinking they were there to help others apply. The idea of applying themselves hadn’t crossed their minds.

Then one usually introverted and quiet member spoke up for the first time, to say, “I’m just gonna say this out-loud in case I’m not the only one. Does anybody else in here feel like an imposter?”

Every hand went up.

The group rallied. Members nominated one another, worked through applications together on mute during virtual study halls, and held one another accountable. As a result, 15 Ask a CPA members made the Top 100 finalists list.

Among them was Sandy Rehart, who’d been working in accounting for decades but never applied. Like Melissa years earlier, Sandy assumed “they weren’t talking about me.” Nancy got emotional describing Sandy’s joy at finally seeing her name on that list.

When the nomination matters more than the win

Nancy’s experience with the AICPA Global Women to Watch award proves this point. The hardest part was asking a colleague to nominate her, essentially saying out-loud, “I want this. Will you help me?”

When she posted about the nomination on LinkedIn, talking about the women who inspired her and what it meant personally, the response was overwhelming. But when she actually won, “practically nobody said anything.”

The vulnerability in sharing the journey resonated more than the achievement itself.

Understanding what awards really are makes sharing easier. “Awards are visibility events. They’re not objective truth,” Melissa observed. Vendors benefit every time you post about a nomination. That’s the business model. You’re not bragging, you’re participating.

Practical permission: Scripts for showing up

Nancy calls it “flexing the Ask muscle,” or pushing through fear to ask for what you want. Every time you do it, it gets a little easier.

As Melissa tells her adult kids, “What’s the worst that can happen? You don’t have it now. If you go for it and don’t get it, you’re in exactly the same place.”

For those ready to post but unsure how, here are suggested scripts from the episode:

  • “Look at all the incredible people on this list. What an honor to be included.”
  • Share that tooting your own horn is hard, and why you’re doing it anyway
  • Tell the personal story of why this award matters to you
  • Express gratitude by tagging people and vendors who made it possible
  • Frame it as paying it forward. “I want to be the example for others that someone was for me.”

Nancy teared up when Melissa said, “We are not rooting for each other to lose. We celebrate each other.”

Raise your hand. Someone behind you is watching.

The most important takeaway from this conversation is to show up for the awards process, even when you feel undeserving. It creates permission for others to show up, too.

As Nancy said in that original text thread, “If we don’t show up, then other people don’t feel like they have reason to show up, either.”

For women in accounting, especially in a profession that hasn’t always rewarded self-promotion, these conversations matter. Every woman who posts about her nomination, asks for a recommendation, or fills out an application after years of assuming “they’re not talking about me” is lighting the path for someone behind her.

Melissa closed the episode with a quote from Mae Jemison, the first Black woman in space: “Never limit yourself because of others’ limited imagination, and never limit others because of your own limited imagination.”

Listen to the full episode of She Counts to hear the complete text thread and the unfiltered emotion in Nancy’s and Melissa’s voices. Then head to the She Counts LinkedIn page and share: What’s an opportunity you’ve been too afraid to pursue, or a time you went for it anyway?

The shiny trophy is nice. But the courage to raise your hand is what actually changes things for you and for every woman watching who needs to see someone go first.

You Don’t Have to Feel Confident to Act With Authority. Here’s the Hack

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Picture a sixth-grader in the mid-1980s, standing at the edge of a school dumpster, working up the nerve to climb in. Cassie Divine had accidentally tossed her orthodontic retainer onto her lunch tray and into the trash. This $150 device might as well have cost a million dollars, in her household. Her mother insisted she  find it. So in she went, alongside the school janitor, digging through the garbage until she came up with the retainer in hand.

The retainer got sterilized, but her reputation didn’t. Word spread, and in an era when Garbage Pail Kids were having their pop-culture moment, a classmate landed on the nickname that followed her for years: “Trashy Cassie.” She was certain her life was over. She begged her mother to let her switch schools.

If that middle-school logic sounds familiar, you’re in good company. On this episode of She Counts, hosts Questian Telka and Nancy McClelland both admit they made the exact same plea to their own mothers. “Can I just change schools?” seemed, at the time, like a completely reasonable solution to an unbearable problem.

But this episode isn’t really about surviving middle school. It’s about what that scrappy, humiliated, dumpster-diving version of Cassie became, and how, three decades later, Cassie discovered she could summon her on demand.

From Dumpster to Boardroom: Meeting Your Alter Ego

Fast-forward thirty years from that dumpster. Cassie Divine is a former Intuit SVP who led QuickBooks for nearly two decades. But Cassie found herself in another impossible situation. She was leading an initiative where tens, maybe hundreds of millions of dollars were on the line. But her senior male colleague kept talking over her, dismissing her ideas, and twice called her boss to complain that she was being “too aggressive.”

“I remember driving home on my commute and thinking through like, what are my choices?” Cassie recalled. The adult version of “Can I switch schools?” had arrived.

Nancy and Questian immediately recognized the double standard. “With a man, it’s leadership and confidence,” Nancy pointed out. “But with a woman, it’s aggressive.” When they asked if either had met a woman who hadn’t faced this, the answer was unanimous: never.

Stuck in traffic and dread, Cassie thought about Trashy Cassie, the girl who climbed into that dumpster and survived the humiliation that followed. “She can deal with this,” Cassie realized. So she channeled that sixth-grader’s resilience long enough to text her colleague and set a clear boundary: “You can’t treat me like this. You can’t treat our team like this.”

“You don’t have to become someone tougher,” Cassie explained. “You remember that you already are her, and she’s available for you to be in this moment.”

The beauty of this approach is that you’re not pretending or manufacturing a new personality. You’re accessing real strength from your own history. When Cassie needed to advocate for a team member, she remembered being “the toughest mom you’ve ever seen” as she advocated for her daughter in a hospital room. That’s who she became in the meeting.

Building Your Catalog of Courage

The alter ego only works if you can summon it intentionally. That means building what Cassie calls a “catalog” of the times you’ve survived hard things.

“You’ve survived 100% of your hardest days,” Cassie said, borrowing a line from Peloton instructor Robin Arzon. Those survival stories can include advocating for someone in a hospital, surviving an illness, or even finding the right words to console a teammate who lost. Each memory is proof that you’ve already been the person who could handle whatever you’re facing now.

Nancy suggested turning this into a journaling exercise. Name your alter egos and write down their three strongest traits. What makes Trashy Cassie powerful? What about the version of you who comforts someone through loss? “Reject everybody else’s definitions for you,” Cassie advised, “and decide the ones that you are.”

The shift is profound. Instead of asking “Can I do this?” you ask “When have I already been the person who could?”

But we often believe you need to feel confident before you can act that way, and that trips up many ambitious women.

Confidence Is Something You Do, Not Something You Feel

“You’re not going to feel confident until you act that way,” Cassie said, cutting straight through one of the biggest myths about professional authority.

Nancy, drawing on cognitive behavioral therapy, explained the mechanics. Your thinking, feeling, and doing selves don’t need to align in order for you to take action. Her shorthand is “putting your yoga pants on.” You can dread the class, doubt you need it, and pull the pants on anyway as you head there. The action doesn’t wait for the feeling’s permission.

Cassie keeps the wisdom “Just act as if” on a Post-it note. The feeling follows the behavior, not the other way around.

For Questian, this revelation reframed her entire early career. “I looked up to women who were farther along and assumed they felt as confident as they appeared,” she admitted. “The idea that they might be projecting confidence they didn’t feel was a foreign concept.”

To trigger this shift on demand, all three women use specific cues. Cassie keeps a picture of a goldfish wearing a shark fin. It looks like a shark in the water, but it’s still just a goldfish underneath. It’s a good visual reminder.

Then there’s the music. Cassie maintains “imposter syndrome playlists” to hype her up beforehand, and one called “Victory Lap” loaded with ridiculous anthems like DJ Khaled’s “All I Do Is Win” for celebrating afterward. Nancy rediscovered Elton John’s “I’m Still Standing” during a brutal tax season, hearing it as proof she’d survived before and would again.

Each time you act confidently and survive, you bank more evidence. The behavior gradually becomes genuine confidence. It’s a hack that builds on itself.

The Guardrails: Clarity Over Cruelty

With this kind of power comes the need for boundaries. Cassie is clear that “this isn’t permission to be unkind. This is permission to be clear.”

The alter ego is situational armor. It’s something you put on for a specific moment and take off when it’s done. If you feel yourself ramping up the “tough lady” too much, that’s your signal to recalibrate. The goal is always clarity, and you never want to lose alignment with your values.

Cassie’s most powerful reframe might be to lead with the outcome rather than the feeling. “So many times our feelings affect what we say and how we say it,” she explained. “If instead I’ve shifted to why it’s important to give this feedback or why it’s important to raise my prices, it sets the tone for everything.”

Her final guardrail, written on another Post-it, is “Talk less, say more.” She learned this after spending 15 minutes explaining her feelings to a difficult colleague and getting nowhere. In a similar situation some months later, she kept it simple. When he said “I don’t know what you mean,” she replied, “I think you do,” and that was that. It was far more effective.

The group shared their favorite conversation-enders. After drafting 17 angry email responses to a jerk colleague, Cassie finally sent just one word: “Unsubscribe.” He read it exactly as intended (“I’m done with you”), and it led to their most productive conversation ever.

For accounting professionals, these tools apply directly to our daily challenges, including pricing conversations, scope creep, and difficult clients. The same playbook works whether we’re setting boundaries with a bully or holding our rates with a demanding client.

Permission to Be Powerful

What Cassie offers is permission to access the strength you’ve already proven. Her mission with Career Hack reflects her goal of helping more women gain power and use their voices more often. Not everyone needs to be a CEO, but learning to act with impact makes the profession better for everyone.

“Women don’t lack capability or intelligence or ambition or work ethic,” Cassie said. “But I do think we lack permission.”

The next time you face a hard conversation, a big project, or a room full of people who underestimate you, remember you don’t need to become someone new. You just need to remember who you’ve already been.

As Nancy put it, “When have I already been the person who can handle hard things?”

Listen to the full episode, and then join the conversation by following the She Counts LinkedIn podcast page and share your answer: When have you already been the person who can handle hard things?

What Women in Accounting Learn When They Stop Scaling and Start Choosing

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Erin Pohan remembers exactly how it felt the first time she walked into Bridging the Gap and saw accountants laughing in hallways and clustering around tables like they’d known each other for years. “How do they do that?” she wondered. “Don’t they sit at their desks all day like I do?”

Then she spotted Nancy McClelland, Jennifer Dymond, and Roman Villard at a table. She walked up and said simply, “I follow you guys on LinkedIn. It’s so nice to meet you.”

“They all turned their entire body to me and looked me in the eye and wanted to know who I was,” Erin recalled during the live recording of She Counts at the Women in Accounting & Finance Visionaries & Entrepreneurs (WAVE) Seattle event. “In that moment I felt seen.”

She refused to wait another year to feel that way again. So she brought it home to Seattle.

From Conference Afterglow to WAVE-Seattle

After experiencing that connection at Bridging the Gap, Erin didn’t want to hop on planes to Las Vegas or Florida to find community again. She threw an evening WAVE event to test the waters. The momentum was so strong that she posted on LinkedIn to gauge wider interest.

“We had women from ten different states and Canada who were like, yes, sign me up. I want community,” Erin shared with the live audience. “They don’t care where they have to go. They just wanted to have the conversations that we all need to have.”

This was WAVE’s second year, and women flew in from Florida, Chicago, Boston, DC, and Baltimore. What started as Erin’s attempt to recreate her conference afterglow became a space where women in accounting could have the conversations that rarely happen out-loud.

The Success Definitions That Were Never Yours

Nancy has run The Dancing Accountant for 25 years. “Fewer than half of those years have been rosy in any way, shape or form,” she admitted to the audience.

The turning point came from a single crushing conversation. Early in her career, a vendor representative asked about her business model. When Nancy explained she wanted to work in the business, not on it, i.e., no staff, managing schedules, or deliverables, he called her stupid.

“You’re avoiding scaling and you’re leaving money on the table,” he’d said.

Nancy was younger then. She absorbed it the way many of us absorb criticism from someone who sounds authoritative. She believed him.

“At age 54, I can tell you I don’t want to scale. I don’t like scaling. I’m not good at managing a team,” Nancy said. “I’m really, really good at meeting with clients. I’m really good at preparing tax-ready books and teaching people how to do that. So why would I scale?”

She concluded, “I am leaving money on the table. The table can keep it.”

But that vendor’s casual insult cost her ten years. “It took me over a decade to dig out from the mess that I made by listening to what he had to say.”

Co-host Questian Telka’s story is more recent but equally familiar. She’d absorbed the same industry gospel of scale, scale, scale.

“If you don’t have a team of 20, then you’re not really a firm,” she said, mimicking the voices. “You have a job. It’s not a business.”

Nancy cut in, “I think that’s just a shit thing to say.”

“I disagree with it entirely,” Questian shared.

Over the past year, Questian has completely restructured her firm. She let go of her team, offboarded most clients, and pivoted to nonprofit CFO work exclusively. “It’s given me the ability to make a lot more money with a lot fewer clients and a lot less time,” she explained. “Most profit with the least amount of work. I want to enjoy the work I’m doing.”

Why You Need a Board of Directors

Finding courage to rewrite the rules rarely happens alone. That’s where your personal board of directors comes in.

“If you’re the CEO of your own life, who’s your chairman? And who else sits around that table?” Erin asked, sharing the framework that had lit her up after an entrepreneur session.

For Nancy, the chairman is her husband. He’s a software developer who processes her verbal torrents and spots patterns she can’t see. Questian calls him “Nancy’s personal large language model.”

“He is the best large language model ever,” Nancy laughed. “A little less talky than ChatGPT, to be sure.”

The value became clear in one memorable story. Nancy had a famously difficult client. When the client’s lawyer fired Nancy during a dispute, Nancy started arguing to keep the client. Her husband grabbed her arm and whispered, “Nancy, this is freedom. Run!”

“He’d heard all the times I vented,” Nancy explained.

The rest of Nancy’s board includes her “bestie” Melissa Miller Furgeson and her therapist, whom she found in the most accountant way possible.

“I made a spreadsheet of all of the therapists in Chicago,” Nancy confessed. “I kept not choosing one because I was overwhelmed by all of the information.” Finally, she pulled up Google Maps, typed “therapist,” and picked the closest one who wasn’t already her client.

Questian’s board centers on her partner, who pushes her past her comfort zone. At one point, she texted Nancy, “I just borrowed my boyfriend’s balls” to find courage for a business risk.

But your board must have diversity.

“I actually really don’t like the term ‘like-minded people,'” Erin admitted. She values different perspectives, even from something as simple as a LinkedIn poll about a botched swag order. The range of responses helped recalibrate her own reaction.

The Women Still Doing It Alone

When Erin asked what mindset shift the hosts hoped attendees would carry forward, Nancy had her answer: You don’t have to do this alone.

Then she spent the day at WAVE and realized, “You already know you don’t have to do this alone because you’re in this room.” Some attendees had flown across the country to be there.

So Nancy pivoted, “You have other people in your life that need to be taught that they don’t have to do it alone.”

The challenge was direct. When you return to your office, think of one person who needs permission to stop grinding in silence. Reach out to them.

For those ready to find community, the panel offered specific recommendations. Bridging the Gap topped Nancy’s list. It’s where she learned from Nayo Carter-Gray how to take a vacation during tax season. (“I literally live in Mexico for four months during tax season,” Nancy shared.) Local one-day events like WAVE and Advisory Amplified help you meet nearby practitioners who become real connections.

But what if you’re terrified of networking?

“When I first started going to conferences, I couldn’t even talk to anyone. I was too scared,” Questian admitted.

The extroverts will help. Nancy and Sharrin Fuller have a standing offer. If you spot them at any conference, come up and they’ll make sure you meet people. Andrea MacDonald posted online that she’d be “lurking in the corner” as an introvert at WAVE, asking people to find her. That willingness to be vulnerable matters.

There’s also the Accounting Cornerstone Foundation, which provides scholarships for conference attendance. A December fundraiser that Jason Staats matched dollar-for-dollar helped six people attend conferences they couldn’t otherwise afford.

“Give without expecting to receive anything in return,” Questian said, summing up the philosophy underneath it all. 

Write Your Own Rules

One moment during the Q&A captured the energy perfectly. When an audience member expressed interest in selling her firm, Erin asked if anyone might want to buy a firm or clients, and hands shot up across the room. “Somebody take a picture of this!” Nancy shouted, as attendees scrambled to capture all the raised hands. Less than two months later, a deal was closed.

These are the conversations and connections that happen when women in accounting gather to talk honestly about burning out and rebuilding, throwing traditional rules out the window, and creating your own path.

“Figure out your why,” Questian urged. “Define what success is to you and don’t listen to or look at what anyone else is doing.”

After everything shared in this episode, they left the audience and listeners with one question: “What’s one definition of success you’ve personally outgrown?”

Listen to the full episode above for the complete conversation, including rapid-fire Q&A about finding therapists, leadership coaches, and more. Then follow the She Counts podcast on LinkedIn to join the conversation.