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Nancy McClelland

The Real Reason Your Female Colleagues Keep Disappearing from Leadership

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You’re watching your female colleagues disappear. One by one, the talented women who started their accounting careers alongside you vanish from the partnership track. When you look around the conference table at senior leadership meetings, you realize that although women make up half of all new hires, only 19% of firm partners are women.

In a recent episode of the She Counts podcast, “Still Under Glass,” hosts Questian Telka and Nancy McClelland tackle this leadership crisis head-on. But they’re not just naming the problem. They’re offering examples and solutions and calling on firm leaders to make fundamental cultural shifts.

The Pipeline Problem That Isn’t

Something dramatic happens between new CPAs entering the profession and reaching partnership, and it’s not a lack of talent.

Unfortunately, this problem isn’t unique to accounting. Across business sectors, women hold only 14% of executive roles. But accounting starts with gender parity, making the difference even more stark. “We know that we have 50% as women, and we know they’re talented,” Telka emphasizes. “The issue is that the profession is losing women mid-career, not because they aren’t capable, but because the system really isn’t designed for us to stay.”

Making the Invisible Visible

Telka shares that a male colleague recently told her he wants to help create positive change but doesn’t understand the issues or how to help. To eliminate that excuse, we need to spell out exactly what’s happening and what allies can do about it.

The biases start small but compound quickly. Studies show men interrupt women 2.5 times more often than women interrupt men. Women are routinely asked to take notes in meetings or organize office celebrations, rather than men. They receive vague feedback like, “you’re doing great, keep it up,” while men more often get specific, actionable guidance tied to promotions.

McClelland adds, “Women of color have a much harder time. There are many different kinds of privilege.” These biases get disguised with phrases like “she’s just not quite the right fit,” a convenient way to mask discrimination that’s hard to pinpoint.

However, recognizing bias is just the first step. Three critical barriers keep women under glass: the motherhood penalty, the flexibility trap, and the sponsorship gap.

The Motherhood Penalty: Same Event, Opposite Outcomes

The data is jaw-dropping. Mothers are considered 12% less committed to their jobs than non-mothers, while fathers are seen as 5% more committed than non-fathers. This perception gap translates directly into salary differences. Mothers receive starting salaries 7.9% lower than childless women and 8.6% lower than fathers.

“The exact same life event, becoming a parent, becomes either a career accelerator or a career killer depending solely on your gender,” the hosts note.

Telka shares a story about her ex-husband taking their son to a playground. When his brother asked how he felt about “babysitting” while the women went shopping, he immediately corrected him: “I’m not babysitting. This is my child.”

That single word—babysitting—captures everything. When fathers care for their children, they’re going above and beyond. When mothers do it, it’s just expected. Worse, it’s considered evidence that they’re not serious about their jobs.

This bias affects daily decisions that slowly strangle women’s careers. Women get passed over for major accounts based on assumptions about their availability. “They’re thinking: you’re a mom, you don’t want to have a larger account,” Telka explains. Instead of asking what support women need to keep advancing, firms quietly write them off.

The Flexibility Trap: Benefits That Destroy Careers

Many firms advertise flexible schedules and family-friendly policies. But there’s a massive gap between having these policies and creating a culture where women can use them without killing their career trajectory.

“Don’t say you’re going to give unlimited vacation or flexible schedules and then expect your employees not to use it,” Telka warns. “Real flexibility isn’t just a policy; it’s putting it in practice.”

McClelland shares an infuriating story that shows this trap in action. A lawyer friend, raising two children alone while her daughter faced serious health issues, negotiated a 25% pay cut for more flexibility. Despite maintaining her full workload and delivering the same results while working more from home, that pay cut became permanent. Future raises were calculated from her reduced salary, compounding the penalty year after year.

Meanwhile, another friend’s male boss responded completely differently to her caregiving needs. “You participate and contribute more than anybody here. I know you’ll get the work done. Take whatever time you need.”

Same situation. Completely different outcomes.

The flexibility trap extends to hiring practices. Most larger firms refuse to consider part-time senior-level roles, demanding 60-plus-hour workweeks as the baseline for showing commitment. “We could hire more women who are highly competent, highly skilled,” Telka argues. She left her position partly because there was no opportunity to work part-time while caring for her son.

The hosts challenge the entire premise of equating hours with value. “The bragging should be, ‘’I’m still hugely successful, and I’ve only had to work ten hours this week because I’m so efficient,’'” Telka suggests. Instead, the profession celebrates whoever logs the most hours, regardless of actual accomplishments.

The Sponsorship Gap: Beyond Coffee and Advice

While firms love their mentorship programs, women need sponsorship, and there’s a crucial difference. Mentors give advice. Sponsors give opportunities.

“Women need advocates who promote them even when they’re not in the room,” Telka explains. This means giving them the opportunity to work with big clients, putting them forward for promotions, and actively using influence on their behalf.

The “feedback gap” shows how this plays out. Telka noticed that men at her firm received specific, actionable feedback: complete these certifications, lead this type of project, and you’ll be ready for promotion. Women got vague encouragement that sounded supportive but functioned as a career ceiling.

McClelland’s experience breaking into professional speaking illustrates the power of sponsorship. She had no idea what to charge and accepted far less than market rates. When Telka learned what McClelland was charging, her response was direct: “You need to charge a lot more.” That single conversation of transparent peer mentorship immediately increased McClelland’s earning potential. But sponsorship is that next step: vouching for her quality of work to professional connections who were ready to pay market rates.

Because women need more than peer support. They need people—espectially men—in leadership roles actively using their privilege for change. This means interrupting when women themselves are interrupted, questioning why Jennifer’s client portfolio is smaller than John’s, and advocating for women who aren’t in the room.

“Don’t wait for women to ask for a promotion,” McClelland urges. Women are far less likely to self-advocate, since they have been socialized to be “nice and kind and warm” rather than assertive. “Intentionally promote women. Just because they’re not asking doesn’t mean they’re not qualified or don’t deserve it.”

From Awareness to Action

The good news? Change is already happening. Jason Ackerman’s firm has achieved 80% women employees with equal gender representation in leadership. Some firms tie partner bonuses to diversity outcomes. A male partner who took paternity leave shifted his entire firm’s culture simply by modeling the behavior.

The solutions are practical and achievable:

  • Track account assignments to ensure equity
  • Stop asking for prior salaries that perpetuate pay gaps
  • Provide bias interruption training for everyone
  • Create revenue-sharing models that reward value over hours
  • Hire skilled women seeking part-time or flexible roles
  • Make pay ranges transparent within organizations
  • Model the behavior you want to see

Companies like Luma Accounting have incorporated policies like these into their firm culture with such successful results that they started the Women+Workplaces community to connect talented women seeking flexible work with firms smart enough to recognize that 30 brilliant hours beat 60 mediocre ones.

“Culture is created based on what we celebrate and what we reinforce,” Telka notes. The profession rewards visibility and hours logged… but it should be rewarding impact, innovation, and results.

The Business Case for Breaking the Glass

When firms lose half their talent pipeline to preventable cultural barriers, they lose experienced professionals who could transform their practices. Women who navigate personal challenges often become more adaptable, empathetic leaders.

“My personal family struggles have made me a much more resilient individual and a more compassionate person and leader,” Telka shares. McClelland agrees, noting that her medical challenges made her more understanding and better able to support her team.

Telka shared a quote from Michelle Obama, “Strong men, men who are truly role models, don’t need to put down women to make themselves feel powerful. People who are truly strong lift others up. People who are truly powerful bring others together.”

The leadership gap in accounting won’t close on its own. But with awareness, commitment, and intentional action from everyone—not just women—the profession can finally move beyond keeping women under glass.

Whether you’re running a firm or just starting your career, you have the power to be part of this shift. Listen to the full episode for more insights, strategies, and an honest conversation about creating real change in accounting.

The hosts also invite you to join the conversation on the She Counts LinkedIn page by sharing your own stories of workplace bias and solutions that work. Recognizing the glass ceiling is just the first step. Breaking it requires all of us.

The Business Case for Leading with Heart in a Numbers-Driven World

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Dawn Brolin’s accounting firm partners told her she was fat. They criticized her for wearing the same clothes repeatedly. And when she tore her meniscus at the gym, they made her drive herself to the hospital with explicit instructions to be at work the next morning.

This wasn’t a scene from a workplace horror story. This was real life for a CPA who would later become one of accounting’s most passionate advocates for empathetic leadership. In a recent episode of the She Counts podcast, Brolin opened up to hosts Nancy McClelland and Questian Telka about the raw experiences she shares in her new book, “The Elevation of Empathy,” revealing how toxic leadership nearly broke her, and ultimately shaped her understanding of what authentic leadership looks like.

What makes Brolin’s story particularly powerful is that she doesn’t just talk about being a victim of empathy-free leadership. She also admits to her own failures and how she learned to recover from them. Her journey shows embracing empathy as a strategic advantage, rather than hiding emotional intelligence to appear “tough enough,” creates stronger teams and better business outcomes.

Before we dive deeper, if this topic triggers any emotions or struggles you’re facing, there is help available. The Crisis Text Line offers confidential professional mental health assistance: just text HOME to 741741.

When Leadership Lacks Heart: The Partnership from Hell

Brolin’s partnership nightmare wasn’t just about bad bosses. It was a masterclass in how the absence of empathy destroys people and businesses from the inside out.

At the time, Brolin was one of three partners in the firm. She brought in most of the clients, and was working to support her young family as the primary breadwinner. She was genuinely excited about building something meaningful. Then reality hit.

“There was zero empathy in that firm,” Brolin recalls. “None whatsoever.”

Because Brolin wasn’t yet a CPA, her partners—both women—relegated her to answering phones and fetching lunch, despite her being the primary rainmaker. The real cruelty went deeper than professional dismissal. They systematically attacked her personally, criticizing her weight and mocking her clothing choices.

The gym incident is an image of empathy-free leadership: when Brolin tore her meniscus during a step aerobics class they’d all attended together, she found herself writhing in pain on the gym floor. Her partners’ response? Figure it out yourself.

“I somehow dragged myself down to the office, and now I need to get to the hospital,” Brolin remembers. “And they were like, ‘All right, well, you’re gonna have to drive yourself to the hospital and make sure you’re at work tomorrow morning.'”

With a torn meniscus.

This wasn’t leadership, it was systematic dehumanization. The partners were creating a culture where employees watched this treatment and learned that success meant crushing others. “I watched how they treated the employees,” Brolin explains. “It wasn’t just me.”

But Brolin made a crucial decision in that toxic environment. Instead of absorbing these behaviors as normal, she used the experience as a reverse blueprint. “I was never going to do that as an employer,” she realized.

When the Empathy Champion Falls Short: Brolin’s Coaching Confession

Here’s what makes Brolin’s story so honest and powerful: she advocates for empathy and admits when she’s failed at it herself.

As a softball coach known as “The Designated Motivator,” Brolin poured her soul into her players. She made it her mission to be inclusive, to make every kid feel appreciated and loved. Then three players transferred to another school.

“My empathy went out the window,” Brolin admits. “I was devastated that they left. I poured my soul into them, and I was like, ‘You’re leaving me.’”

Instead of considering why these kids might have needed to transfer, Brolin took it personally. She withdrew her care and support from them completely. “That was so wrong,” she reflects.

But here’s the beautiful part: Brolin recognized her mistake and fixed it. About a year later, she went to each of the three kids and apologized.

“I want you to know something. This is an epic fail on my part, not yours,” she told them. She gave them permission not to forgive her, making it clear the apology was about them, not about making herself feel better.

They forgave her. Now they text regularly.

“My point in saying that is, for those people who have been unempathetic to an individual, you can fix that,” Brolin explains. “You can go to a person, and admit you messed up.”

In short, empathy isn’t about being perfect. It’s about recognizing your failures, owning them, and doing better.

Empathy as Your Secret Business Weapon

The accounting profession has operated under a fundamental misunderstanding: that empathy equals weakness. Brolin’s experiences prove exactly the opposite.

“Empathy doesn’t mean you’re soft,” Brolin emphasizes. “As a matter of fact, I think it’s a superpower.”

The American Psychological Association defines empathy as understanding a person from their frame of reference rather than your own. This breaks down into two skills: cognitive empathy (logically understanding someone’s perspective) and emotional empathy (actually feeling what they feel).

In business terms, this translates to measurable advantages that accounting firms can’t ignore. The research is overwhelming: empathetic leaders drive stronger team performance, higher retention rates, sharper decision-making, increased innovation, and improved mental health across their organizations.

“When leaders have empathy, people gravitate to that leader more than they do to a leader who doesn’t have empathy,” Brolin explains.

Consider Brad Smith, former CEO of Intuit, who Brolin cites as one of her favorite leaders. At industry conferences, Smith would stop mid-stride when he saw familiar faces, remembering personal details about employees’ families and asking about their daughters’ college plans.

“That is a leader who has empathy, who cares about other people by his actions more than his words,” Brolin notes. “They don’t superficially care about you because it’s going to give them an advantage. They care about you because of you.”

Being appointed to a leadership position doesn’t automatically make someone a leader. True leadership requires the ability to connect with and understand the people you’re leading. When your employees trust that you see them as whole humans rather than just billable resources, they bring their full creative potential to work.

The Burden Women Carry (And Why Men Need to Step Up Too)

Women in accounting firms often carry the invisible emotional labor of our workplaces. According to a 2023 Deloitte report, 51% of women say they’re expected to manage team wellbeing, compared to only 27% of men.

Telka knows this intimately. “I think about things like birthday gifts for colleagues or cards that have to be signed or someone’s ill and they need to be sent flowers,” she explains. “It often fell on me, probably because I was the most empathetic. The men were never the ones who were driving those situations.”

McClelland captures this perfectly with her favorite greeting card: “The front of the card says, ‘Happy birthday, from us.’ Inside: ‘But I think you know who went out and bought the card and wrote it and addressed it—and who just put the stamp on it.’”

But Brolin believes many men in the industry are more empathetic than we realize. “They’re just not being intentional about it,” she says. Take Randy Crabtree, who wrote the foreword to Brolin’s book, or Mike Paine, who told Telka, “I really want to help women in the field. Help me understand what the problem is and tell me what I can do, then I’m here for it.”

“And that’s empathy,” McClelland points out. “That is empathy right there.”

Learning to Accept What You Give: The Hardest Lesson

For Brolin, one of the biggest challenges has been learning to accept empathy, not just give it.

“People think because I keep going, I don’t hurt,” Brolin shares. “Let me be very clear. I hurt, and I keep going.”

Women leaders often become so focused on caring for others that they struggle to let others care for them. When Kellie Parks called after reading Brolin’s vulnerable Mother’s Day post, Brolin’s instinct was to deflect and hang up quickly.

Instead, she made a conscious choice to receive Parks’ empathy. “I let myself listen to what Kellie had to say and gave some space in my soul.”

McClelland offered Brolin a reframe that many women leaders need to hear: “Would you want me to hide my pain to protect you?” When Brolin said of course not, McClelland continued, “It’s an honor to have you turn to me when you need help. So if you ask for help, you’re showing us the same respect.”

As McClelland puts it, the goal is “unconditional love, but conditional involvement”—staying open to authentic connection while maintaining boundaries about what treatment you’ll accept.

Practical Tools for Building Your Empathy Muscle

Brolin offers specific practices for developing empathy as a leadership skill:

  • Practice mindfulness to build awareness. When you talk to someone, be truly present in that conversation. This is especially challenging at conferences with distractions everywhere, but it’s worth the effort.
  • Ask questions without making assumptions. Go into conversations with a blank slate rather than preconceived notions about what someone will say. As Telka notes, “Most of the time if I don’t make assumptions, things turn out much more positively.”
  • Pay attention to nonverbal cues. What are people not saying out-loud that you should consider asking about?
  • Ask for feedback. Be vulnerable enough to say, “This scenario happened with this client. What could we have done differently? Was it something I should have done that I didn’t do?”

Remember, as Brolin’s softball story shows, empathy can be learned and relearned. You can unlearn behaviors that hurt others. Most people aren’t out to hurt others. They’ve just learned harmful patterns that they can change.

Your Empathy Is Revolutionary

Brolin’s journey from victim of empathy-free leadership to champion of emotional intelligence demonstrates that our profession’s future depends on leaders who understand that strength and compassion are partners in creating sustainable success.

Empathetic leadership drives measurable results through higher retention, stronger teams, sharper decision-making, and improved mental health. In an industry grappling with talent shortages and burnout, leaders who can authentically connect with their teams while driving results are essential for survival.

Women in accounting must reject false choices. You don’t have to choose between empathy and strength, between caring and competence. Your emotional intelligence is your competitive advantage.

As Audre Lorde reminds us, “Caring for others doesn’t make you weak. It makes you dangerous to systems built on indifference.”

Ready to hear Brolin’s complete journey and discover more tools for empathetic leadership? Listen to the full She Counts episode to learn how to turn your emotional intelligence into your greatest professional asset. The future of accounting depends on leaders brave enough to lead with both their heads and their hearts, and you’re uniquely positioned to show the way.

This Forbes Top 200 CPA Says Sponsors Matter More Than Mentors

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Picture this: You’re sitting across from a potential client—an older gentleman who seems kind and polite. Your expertise fills the room, your credentials speak for themselves, but throughout the entire meeting, he keeps calling you “darling.” Not your name. Just “darling.”

This experience happened to Nicole Davis, founder of Conscious Accounting (formerly Butler Davis) and a Forbes Top 200 CPA. For Davis, who’s originally from Georgia, where terms like “honey” and “sweetheart” are common, it wasn’t about being offended. It was about something deeper.

“Since we’re in a professional setting, I’m like, ‘you need to call me by my name,’” Davis explains. “When some men see a pretty face or just women in general, they kind of tend to sidestep our expertise.”

Sound familiar? If you’ve worked in accounting, tax, or bookkeeping for any length of time, you’ve probably been there. That moment when your face is seen, but your capabilities somehow become invisible. It’s why a recent episode of the She Counts podcast bears the title “Don’t Call Me Darling,” and why Nicole’s response to these moments is a masterclass in redefining professional power.

When Power Looks Different Than Expected

Davis’s journey to commanding respect didn’t happen overnight. Despite her current reputation for dominating whatever room she enters, she admits something that might surprise you: “I am highly introverted. People think I’m not because I can turn on. But as quickly as I turn it on, I can turn it off.”

Early in her corporate career, Davis bought into traditional definitions of power. “Early in my career when I worked in corporate America, I thought power meant title, power meant that corner office, power meant I’m calling the shots and I’m telling people what to do.”

But when she started her own firm, that facade crumbled. What emerged was something far more powerful. “Real power isn’t in a title. Real power isn’t in how much money you have. Real power is when you own who you are, and you make everyone else also accept that person.”

The catalyst for this shift? Representation. Davis’s boss at the Federal Home Loan Bank, Michelle, was the first Black woman she’d ever worked for. “When I started working for her, my eyes started to open. I started to see myself like a boss, but I didn’t see the path to get there as a Black woman, because all I saw was white men.”

This speaks to something we don’t talk about enough in our profession. When you don’t see people who look like you in positions of power, it’s hard to imagine yourself there. As co-host Nancy McClelland admits, “When I hear the word ‘doctor,’ I presume it’s a white male. Now, that is just absolutely ridiculous. It’s these deep-seated institutional societal biases we all have.”

For Davis, seeing Michelle changed everything. It showed her there was a path and more importantly, she could define what that path looked like.

Redefining What Domination Really Means

When Davis talks about “dominating” spaces, she’s not talking about aggression or making others small. “Dominating means agency. It means I am calling the shots. I’m writing my own tickets, I’m making the rules. I am doing things my way.”

But here’s the part that gave podcast co-host McClelland chills: “Dominating is not about making men small, right? Dominating is about making the space honest enough for all of us to fit into it.”

This isn’t about rejecting collaboration or building walls. It’s about what Davis calls “owning your story so completely that the room moves to your rhythm. I’m not moving to theirs.”

Learning to do this required Davis to develop boundaries that she calls “non-negotiables.” “I set boundaries and I set them fast with people,” she says. The key is being “warm but firm.”

As Davis explains, “People think you have to walk into a room and be the loudest person there to show you’re significant. No, you don’t. You walk into a room and you’re just there. Your presence says way more than words you could ever speak or say.”

This kind of presence requires something many women in accounting struggle with: refusing to shrink ourselves to make others comfortable. But when you do it right, something magical happens. Davis describes authenticity as working “a lot like Wi-Fi” because “people in range of you being who you are get that signal and they log into theirs.”

In other words, when you show up authentically, you give others permission to do the same.

Technology: The Great Equalizer

One area where Davis sees a massive opportunity for women is technology, specifically AI. Her philosophy? “Buddy up with the bots.”

“AI is making a grand stand in our profession, and so many people still have not latched on to it yet,” Davis observes. But here’s where women have an advantage. “Women have mastered efficiency out of necessity. Women are perfectly positioned to make a big major splash in the tech industry.”

Davis describes AI as acting like “a tireless junior associate” that “never needs to take a vacation. They never get tired. They can do all the things you really don’t want to do from an administrative standpoint, possibly from an analytical standpoint.”

This is about layering technology with relationship-building, and it’s something women excel at.

This approach has allowed Davis to build her firm primarily through relationships rather than traditional sales tactics. “I built my firm strictly on relationships,” she says. “I just kept taking care of my current clients and adding more services to what they needed.”

The result? A practice designed around her values rather than traditional expectations, what she calls achieving true freedom through strategic use of technology.

The Power of Sponsorship vs. Mentorship

While many people focus on finding mentors, Davis believes sponsorship is more critical. “Mentors guide, but sponsors vouch.” This concept was a key inspiration to co-host Questian Telka in her initial creation of the She Counts podcast.

Davis’ own story illustrates this perfectly. In 2020, Jeff Drew from the AICPA reached out about the practitioners planning committee. “I had no idea this committee existed,” Davis admits. But Drew’s sponsorship opened doors she didn’t know were there, eventually leading to her current role as committee chair.

“Sponsors rewrite the guest list for you so your name is on it,” Davis explains. “And when you’re on the list, your mentors help you stay on the list and guide you as you go through your journey.”

This distinction matters because it shows sometimes the biggest barrier isn’t our capability; it’s visibility. Sponsors help solve that problem by putting your name in rooms where decisions are made.

From Spaces Not Built for Us

When asked about spaces traditionally dominated by men, Davis counters, “What space was ever built for me?”

It’s a powerful question that reframes the entire conversation. Rather than trying to fit into existing structures, Davis has consistently created her own path, from starting her accounting firm to launching a construction company.

“Who said women can’t wear heels and then put on some steel-toed boots in the same week?” she asks with characteristic wit.

This mindset shift, from asking for permission to creating opportunities, separates true leaders from those still waiting for someone else to open doors.

Getting Out of Your Own Head

Davis’s advice for women wanting to take up more space is, “Take it. I know we haven’t touched on this a lot, but stamp out imposter syndrome. You’re not an imposter.”

Her approach involves speaking life into your goals. “Say it out-loud. Say it to yourself in the mirror. Say, ‘I am a badass speaker. I am an exceptional accountant. I know how to do this, this, and this.’ Even if you don’t know how to do it, say it anyway. Because eventually your mind is going to start believing it, and eventually your actions start following what your mind believes.”

It’s about recognizing that you’ve already proven yourself. “You wouldn’t have gotten this far without knowing anything. You know something. Use that to level you up.”

The Ripple Effect

Davis’s journey from being called “darling” to being recognized as a Forbes Top 200 CPA represents something bigger than individual success: cultural transformation.

When women refuse to shrink themselves, when they set boundaries while maintaining warmth, when they leverage technology to create more inclusive practices, they create ripple effects that extend far beyond their immediate sphere.

As Davis puts it, authenticity becomes “a permission slip” for everyone around you. Refusing to apologize for taking up space permits others to do the same.

In the accounting profession, technology is challenging traditional power structures and changing client expectations. There’s a new generation of professionals who refuse to accept “that’s how it’s always been done” as an answer.

Women like Davis are leading this transformation, not by playing by the old rules, but by writing new ones. They prove you don’t need to adopt masculine models of authority to command respect, and you don’t need to diminish others to demonstrate your strength.

Every boundary you set, every authentic moment you choose over conformity, every time you refuse to make yourself small, you give the next generation permission to thrive.

Because the world needs more women who understand that true domination isn’t about making others small. It’s about being so genuinely powerful that everyone around you gets permission to thrive.

Ready to transform how you show up in your professional spaces? Listen to the full She Counts episode to hear more of Davis’s insights and discover specific strategies you can implement immediately. 

The Secret to Turning Fear Into Career Fuel

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Picture Nancy McClelland at 40, standing backstage in a short fringe dress, her heart pounding as she prepares for her first go-go dancing performance. The stage lights are bright, the music is starting, and all she can think about is what people will say when they see her “hauling her 40-year-old heiny across the stage.” This wasn’t just stage fright. This was the terror of pursuing a lifelong dream that felt completely at odds with her professional identity as an accountant.

Yet in that moment of pure vulnerability, McClelland discovered something that would reshape her entire approach to career growth. When she confided to fellow dancer Laurel that she wished she could be fearless like her, Laurel’s response was life-changing: “Oh no, no, no, no, Nancy, I’m just as scared as the next person. The difference is that I do it anyway.”

In this episode of the She Counts podcast, hosts Nancy McClelland and Questian Telka explore the relationship between fear and professional success. They share raw stories of moments when they chose courage over comfort, from McClelland’s dancing debut to Telka’s surprise presentation to 500 people instead of 80. Their conversation reveals an uncomfortable truth about women in accounting: we’re often told to be fearless when what we really need is to be strategically courageous.

The most successful women in accounting don’t overcome their fears. They harness them as career accelerators. They transform every terrifying moment into evidence that they can handle whatever comes next. This builds the muscle to move forward when every instinct tells you to retreat.

Why “Don’t Be Afraid” Is the Worst Career Advice Ever

The accounting profession has a fundamental problem with fear, and it starts with the most damaging piece of career advice ever given: “Don’t be afraid.” We’ve all heard it in conference rooms, performance reviews, and networking events. But McClelland and Telka discovered this advice isn’t just impossible to follow; it’s actively harmful to career growth.

“I personally wish we could delete the phrase ‘don’t be afraid’ from our lexicons,” McClelland explains. “Being afraid is an extremely natural, very human way to be.  Our bodies do this to keep us safe. So by saying, ‘don’t be afraid,’ we’re like, ‘Pay no attention whatsoever to all of these hormones that are coursing through you.'”

The distinction between courage and fearlessness isn’t just semantic; it’s career-defining. Fearlessness is the absence of fear, which Telka points out is completely unrealistic: “I’ve never met someone that doesn’t have fear and doesn’t get afraid. Some of us are better at hiding it than others, but fearlessness is the absence of fear. And that’s just completely unrealistic.”

Courage, however, is something entirely different. As Telka defines it: “Courage is accepting that you feel the fear and acting despite being fearful anyway; doing it anyway.”

This reframe changes everything. Instead of viewing fear as a weakness to overcome, successful women in accounting learn to see it as valuable information. McClelland discovered this through her unlikely mentor, Laurel, whose words became her operating system: “As I say those words out loud, I can feel the goosebumps on my arms and my legs. It’s become a mantra to me. I see fear as something I’ve earned. And courage is the thing that makes me strong—not being fearless.”

Fear often signals you’re approaching something meaningful enough to accelerate your growth. Your body cannot distinguish between fear and excitement: the sweaty palms, rapid heartbeat, and nervous energy are identical responses. The only difference is your mental interpretation. When you reframe these sensations as excitement about an opportunity, rather than terror about potential failure, you transform your body’s natural alarm system into a career accelerator.

This understanding is especially crucial for women in accounting, who face additional pressure to appear “professional” while receiving contradictory messages about vulnerability and emotion. The moments that terrify us most often contain the greatest potential for professional transformation.

When Terror Becomes Your Greatest Teacher

The most profound professional transformations often begin with a phone call that changes everything. For Telka, it was discovering just days before Intuit Connect, that her carefully planned presentation for 80 people had been moved to a 500-person auditorium.

“I full panic, full panic, like from 0 to 11,” she recalls. “And I stayed there until after my presentation was over. I feel like I missed half the conference because I was just so scared and terrified.”

But here’s what happened next: “It was literally one of the best things I have ever done. And my favorite part was engaging with the people in the audience.” The very thing Telka feared most—not being able to answer questions from a large crowd—became the highlight of her experience.

This experience taught Telka a lesson about her capabilities: “If I did that, I can do anything. There’s nothing more terrifying to me than standing up in front of a room of 500 people. And so now I’m like, okay… and I just did it.”

McClelland learned similar lessons through an unlikely teacher: skydiving. Despite her intense fear of heights and her boss’s logical observation that not wanting to jump from a plane is perfectly reasonable, McClelland completed the full training course and solo jump. The experience taught her that “training mitigates risk. Learning how to do the thing will build your confidence.”

This insight transforms how we approach career challenges. McClelland applies this principle when working with bookkeepers who say they “could never do advisory work.” Her response: “I bet if you studied how to do advisory work, you would be confident enough to do advisory work. But you’ve got to actually learn how to do the thing and really dig in and test yourself.”

Yet even understanding this concept doesn’t eliminate fear from future challenges. McClelland emphasizes this crucial point: “Courage builds courage. I’m not afraid of all the same things I used to be afraid of.” But new fears replace old ones, and even familiar challenges can still trigger anxiety.

These transformative moments don’t happen by accident. They require specific tools and strategies for moving through fear rather than around it.

The Professional Toolkit for Acting Despite Fear

The difference between women who advance in accounting and those who remain stuck isn’t the absence of fear. It’s having a systematic approach to harness that fear as career fuel. McClelland and Telka shared practical strategies that work in any challenging situation.

Start with Your Why

The foundation begins with reconnecting to your purpose. As Telka explains: “I constantly come back to my why. And that generally helps me make a decision. And it helps me mitigate the fear that I have around those decisions.” When you remember that you care more about your goal than your fear, the choice becomes clearer.

Separate Action from Feeling

McClelland learned from her therapist that your three selves—thinking, doing, and feeling—don’t actually need to be aligned to accomplish something. “You can be lying in bed depressed and be like, ‘I do not feel like doing the thing,’ and your brain can be like, ‘Doing the thing is the worst idea in the world.’ And you can still get your butt out of bed, and you can do it.”

McClelland’s shorthand for separating the action from the need to want to do it is “putting your yoga pants on.”. This approach makes it easier to develop courage as a habit over time.

Commit When You’re Not Terrified

McClelland developed a crucial strategy: “I say ‘yes’ ahead of time. I say ‘yes’ to whatever it is I’m going to do when I’m not terrified. And I have a policy of not backing out.” This worked when Financial Cents asked her to teach 700 people the Time Warp dance at a virtual conference. She said yes when it sounded exciting, then honored that commitment when fear kicked in later.

Use Physical Exercise to Burn Adrenaline

McClelland’s therapist taught her that adrenaline is a finite resource. “If you are really scared about something, go get some physical exercise. Use up all that adrenaline. It takes a while for your body to regenerate it.” This is why you’ll find speakers like Misty Megia doing jumping jacks before big presentations.

Borrow Confidence from Others

Telka credits both McClelland and Megia with providing crucial support: “Find someone who believes in what you’re doing, who believes in you, even if it’s something that you’re scared to do.” You can amplify this by speaking your fears aloud or writing them down. McClelland explains: “You can actually magnify that by saying it in a group of friends. You can magnify it by saying it to a mentor and borrow your confidence from them. So simultaneously, you’re taking the power away from the fear and you’re borrowing confidence.”

Break Tasks into Smaller Steps

Instead of focusing on overwhelming challenges, break them into manageable pieces. This approach makes the insurmountable feel achievable.

Develop Personal Mantras

McClelland keeps reminders like “remember who you are inside” and “go with the freak-out flow.” Telka draws from science fiction, reciting from Dune: “I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it is gone, there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

The ultimate insight is that you don’t need to feel ready to act. You just need to act. Each time you choose action over comfort, you build evidence of your capability to handle difficult situations, creating a career acceleration system that transforms fear from an obstacle into an opportunity detector.

The Fears That Hold Women Back in Accounting

Women in accounting face specific challenges that require courage to overcome. These fears are deeply connected to how we’re perceived and judged in professional settings.

The Emotional Professional Paradox

Telka came from a Big Four environment where “if you have an emotion, you need to step away. Do not be emotional.” She used to take it as an insult when someone called her sensitive or emotional. “But I think it’s my strength at this point,” she reflects. “My emotions, my empathy, my compassion, my sensitivity—I used to take it as an insult, but it’s actually my strength.”

Setting Boundaries and Asking for Money

For firm owners, the challenges multiply. Setting boundaries with clients and team members requires constant courage. McClelland admits: “It’s been really, really hard for me because I feel so much empathy for them. Sometimes you just have deadlines and it’s terrifying. I just get paralyzed sometimes.”

Asking for money remains one of McClelland’s biggest challenges. “I don’t want to have to sell it. I don’t want to have to ask you for money. I just want to do these things that I want to do that I think will make a difference in the world and be paid, and then just skip the part where I have to ask for it.”

Admitting You Don’t Know Something

Perhaps the most universal fear is admitting ignorance. As McClelland learned from teaching music theory, “The best thing to do when you’re teaching and somebody asks a question you don’t know is to earn the trust of the students by saying, ‘I don’t know the answer to that, but I know where to find it, and I’m going to get back to you on it.'”

The Motherhood Penalty

The guilt around balancing career and family creates another layer of fear. Telka boldly states: “I do not have guilt leaving my kids to go to conferences.” McClelland, though not a mother herself, reinforces this: “Your children need to see an example of you having a healthy, enthusiastic relationship with your work and with your hobbies and with your friends.”

These fears are normal and shared by successful women throughout the profession. The difference is that successful women develop strategies to act despite these fears rather than letting them dictate their choices.

Your Next Breakthrough Is Waiting

The most successful women in accounting share a secret that has nothing to do with technical expertise and everything to do with their relationship with fear. They’ve learned that fear isn’t the enemy of career advancement; it’s the most reliable indicator that they’re approaching something meaningful enough to accelerate their growth.

Consider how this approach transforms common career challenges: Instead of avoiding difficult conversations with clients, you prepare thoroughly and have them anyway. Instead of declining speaking opportunities because you’re not an “expert,” you accept them and become one through the experience. Instead of staying in safe employment because entrepreneurship is scary, you start your firm and learn to navigate the fear of the unknown.

Every major career breakthrough requires moving through fear rather than around it. The women who advance fastest act despite their doubt. They understand that professional growth happens not when we feel ready, but when we choose to act anyway.

Each time you choose courage over comfort, you’re building the muscle that makes the next scary decision a little easier to navigate.

The next time you feel that familiar terror before a big presentation, client meeting, or career move, remember McClelland standing backstage in her go-go boots and Telka discovering her 80-person room became 500 people. They didn’t wait to feel ready. They didn’t eliminate their fear. They simply chose to act anyway.

Listen to this full episode of She Counts to hear more strategies for transforming fear into professional fuel, and discover how other women in accounting have built careers by repeatedly choosing courage over comfort. Because your biggest breakthrough might be hiding on the other side of your biggest fear. The only way to find out is to do it anyway.

From Guilt to Grace: How Setting Boundaries Actually Improves Client Service

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You decide to sleep in for once, rolling over in bed to ignore the world and give yourself a much-needed break. Then your phone buzzes with an email notification that makes your blood boil instantly: a one-star Google review from a client who’s furious that you won’t drop everything to take his phone calls.

This exact scenario happened to Nayo Carter-Gray, an Enrolled Agent (EA) who runs her own accounting firm, just a couple of weeks before she joined Nancy McClelland and Questian Telka for a live episode of She Counts recorded at the Scaling New Heights conference. The client in question was part of a client list acquisition, bypassed Carter-Gray’s communication policies from Day One, and demanded immediate callbacks despite her firm’s clear appointment-only structure.

Here’s the kicker: After Carter-Gray crafted a nearly 5,000-word response (thankfully never sent), the client discovered the real problem was a tech issue on his end that had been blocking emails for a week. “He took his review down because he discovered the thing that he was upset about was not even our fault. It was his,” Carter-Gray explains.

The client took down his nasty review, but the damage to the relationship was done. More importantly, Carter-Gray realized this was a blessing in disguise, a clear sign this client wasn’t a good fit for her practice.

This story perfectly captures the tension that accounting professionals face every day: the clash between setting professional boundaries and managing client expectations in a culture that demands instant gratification. During their conversation about boundaries, McClelland, Telka, and Carter-Gray tackled one of the most challenging aspects of running a sustainable practice: protecting your time and energy without sacrificing service quality or damaging client relationships.

Professional boundaries aren’t about saying ‘no’ to clients; they’re about saying ‘yes’ to better service.

From Barriers to Bridges: Reframing the Boundary Mindset

Transforming boundary-setting from a guilt-inducing struggle into a service enhancement tool starts with a simple reframe. As Carter-Gray puts it, “Boundaries aren’t barriers, but bridges to better client relationships.”

This philosophy runs counter to everything most accounting professionals have been conditioned to believe. We’ve been taught good service means being available whenever clients need us; saying ‘no’ makes us difficult; and professional success requires wearing every hat in our practice. But Carter-Gray’s experience tells a different story.

When she initially set up her firm, she was doing exactly what most of us do: trying to handle everything herself. “I was doing all the things, trying to set the appointments, trying to have all the client calls,” she recalls. “I realized I was spending so much time on things clients can do themselves, like schedule an appointment.”

The breakthrough came when she asked why clients had to talk to her to schedule a call with her. “When I call the doctor’s office, the doctor isn’t the one on the phone scheduling a call. It’s usually the front desk admin or a nurse practitioner or somebody lower on the rung,” she explains.

This realization led to restructuring how her firm operates. She implemented scheduling links, started using an answering service, and created clear communication protocols that actually freed her up to focus on the work that truly requires her expertise.

“When I’m talking to you, I wanna just be able to talk to you and not have any distraction,” Carter-Gray explains. This captures the essence of the boundary-as-bridge concept. By protecting her time and attention through clear systems, she creates space to be fully present with clients when they do connect. The boundaries enhance the service rather than diminishing it.

Building Systems That Support Your Boundaries

The magic of effective boundary-setting isn’t the boundaries themselves, but the systems that make those boundaries feel natural and professional rather than defensive or apologetic. Carter-Gray’s approach demonstrates how multiple touchpoints and clear processes can eliminate the need to justify your professional structure.

“I try to do a really good job of explaining it the first time,” Carter-Gray explains, outlining her multi-layered client education process. “In our potential client call, I’ll walk you through the process. It’s at the bottom of our follow-up email, and we reiterate it in our welcome guide.”

This welcome guide serves as a proactive boundary-setting tool. Rather than waiting for conflicts to arise and then having to explain policies defensively, the guide educates clients before issues develop. “It is in the engagement letter as well,” Carter-Gray adds, acknowledging that “people don’t read,” which is why repetition across multiple formats is essential.

Her automation strategies go beyond simple scheduling tools. “You fill out the potential client form. I get an email that tells me all about you, and then we accept it or decline it based on your responses,” she explains. Once accepted, automated emails go out immediately to capitalize on the client’s momentum while setting clear expectations about what comes next.

One practical example of systematic boundary-setting is her approach to business hours. “We’re virtual. That doesn’t mean we’re 24/7. We have business hours. We work Monday through Friday, 10:00 AM to 6:00 PM Eastern Standard Time,” she states firmly. But she goes a step further, scheduling emails to send during business hours even when she writes them on weekends.

“I stopped sending emails on weekends because sending an email on a Saturday at seven gives the impression that you’re working,” she explains. “So even though I might be working on Saturday, I schedule the email for Monday morning at 10:00 AM Eastern (or 10:05, so it won’t feel like I’ve scheduled the email).”

Her team structure reinforces these boundaries through shared systems rather than individual heroics. “We use a shared email inbox,” she explains, “so every meeting, every email is seen by the entire team that’s responsible. At any given point, if one of us is out, somebody else can jump in.”

This prevents the single-person bottleneck that destroys boundaries when clients believe only one person can help them. 

Perhaps most importantly, Carter-Gray aligns her systems with her personal energy patterns. “Sales calls are on Monday because I am pumped up for the week,” she shares, demonstrating how boundaries can actually optimize performance when they’re designed around how you naturally work best.

Here’s her professional out-of-office template:

“Dear Client, from [start date] to [end date], I’ll be taking some much-needed time off. For urgent matters, please contact [colleagues]. I value our partnership and assure you that all tasks will be handled with the same dedication and efficiency.”

No lengthy explanations. No apologies. Just clear, professional communication about availability.

Overcoming Guilt and the People-Pleasing Trap

The most sophisticated boundary systems in the world will crumble without addressing the psychological patterns that make saying “no” feel impossible in the first place. For many accounting professionals, the real battle is with the internal voice that whispers… we’re being difficult, selfish, or unprofessional when we protect our time and energy.

“If you feel guilty about all of the things, then you will never feel good about all of the things,” Carter-Gray points out. This guilt cycle creates a destructive pattern where professionals overcommit to avoid disappointing others, then build resentment toward the very clients they’re trying to serve.

“Sometimes you have to take your guilt and say, ‘Why am I feeling guilty about this? Is it because I’m not able to do this? Or is it because I don’t want to do this?’” Carter-Gray challenges. “When you realize it’s something you don’t want to do, the answer’s no.”

The power of “no is a complete sentence” prevents the resentment that destroys service quality. “I don’t wanna resent you, I wanna be able to enjoy whatever relationship that we have,” Carter-Gray explains. “Every time I see you, I don’t wanna be like, oh, let me avoid this girl.”

The oxygen mask principle flight attendants teach is a perfect parallel for professional service: “You gotta take care of your mask first before you help others,” Carter-Gray reminds us. This isn’t selfishness; it’s sustainability.

Even the language patterns that reinforce guilt need conscious attention. Telka recognizes herself as an over-apologizer, a common pattern among women in professional settings. Carter-Gray offers a simple but powerful reframe: “Instead of being sorry for something, thank the other person for their patience. So instead of, ‘oh, I’m sorry I’m late,’ say ‘thank you for your patience. You waited for me.’ Really I should be saying… let’s honor, let’s celebrate that.”

The deeper principle at work here challenges the entire culture of instant availability that pervades professional services. “Don’t apologize for taking personal time. We are humans. We are not robots. We are not made to work 24/7,” Carter-Gray states firmly. “If you worked for someone else and your hours were nine to five and they asked you to come in at seven, you would be pissed. So you work for yourself, but you don’t set up these same rules for yourself?”

Carter-Gray’s favorite saying captures this mindset: “Not your monkey, not your circus.” In other words, you don’t have to jump into every chaotic situation just because you have the skills to help.

Small Steps to Start Today

For conflict-averse accounting professionals who want to start practicing boundary setting, Carter-Gray suggests beginning with low-stakes changes:

  • Email auto-responders. “You can set your emails now to have a responder that says ‘Thank you so much for your email. We will get back to you within 48 business hours.’ It takes a little pressure off of you to respond immediately.”
  • Virtual assistants or chatbots. These can help take over some of the communication functionality that currently pulls you away from client work.
  • Clear communication about availability. Be proactive about telling clients when you’ll be unavailable, giving them time to prepare mentally.
  • Provide alternatives. When you can’t help directly, offer other solutions. As McClelland points out, this might mean saying, “I’m not available to help with that. However, I have an amazing team that I’ve invested a lot of my time and energy into training. And they will take really great care of you.”

The key is being proactive rather than reactive.

Your Path to Sustainable Service Excellence

Professional boundaries aren’t about becoming the difficult accountant who never helps anyone; they’re about becoming the professional who helps the right clients exceptionally well. The most sustainable practitioners don’t say “yes” to everything. They create frameworks that protect their ability to serve authentically.

This approach offers a roadmap for any accounting professional ready to move beyond the exhausting cycle of over-commitment and resentment and gives them permission to prioritize sustainability without guilt. 

Take the first step by choosing one small boundary to implement this week. Maybe it’s an email auto-responder that sets response time expectations. Perhaps it’s scheduling your weekend emails to send during business hours. Or it could be as simple as switching your language from “I’m sorry I’m late” to “Thank you for your patience.”

Listen to the full episode of the The Counts podcast featuring Nayo Carter–Gray for more advice on setting boundaries to become sustainable, focused, and authentically present. 

You can follow Nayo Carter-Gray on social media @NayoCarterGray and learn more about her work at upcoming conferences, including Bridging the Gap, NAEA’s Tax Summit, and Intuit Connect. She also serves on the board of the Accounting Cornerstone Foundation, which provides scholarships for first-time conference attendees in the accounting profession.