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Nancy McClelland

What Women in Accounting Learn When They Stop Scaling and Start Choosing

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Erin Pohan remembers exactly how it felt the first time she walked into Bridging the Gap and saw accountants laughing in hallways and clustering around tables like they’d known each other for years. “How do they do that?” she wondered. “Don’t they sit at their desks all day like I do?”

Then she spotted Nancy McClelland, Jennifer Dymond, and Roman Villard at a table. She walked up and said simply, “I follow you guys on LinkedIn. It’s so nice to meet you.”

“They all turned their entire body to me and looked me in the eye and wanted to know who I was,” Erin recalled during the live recording of She Counts at the Women in Accounting & Finance Visionaries & Entrepreneurs (WAVE) Seattle event. “In that moment I felt seen.”

She refused to wait another year to feel that way again. So she brought it home to Seattle.

From Conference Afterglow to WAVE-Seattle

After experiencing that connection at Bridging the Gap, Erin didn’t want to hop on planes to Las Vegas or Florida to find community again. She threw an evening WAVE event to test the waters. The momentum was so strong that she posted on LinkedIn to gauge wider interest.

“We had women from ten different states and Canada who were like, yes, sign me up. I want community,” Erin shared with the live audience. “They don’t care where they have to go. They just wanted to have the conversations that we all need to have.”

This was WAVE’s second year, and women flew in from Florida, Chicago, Boston, DC, and Baltimore. What started as Erin’s attempt to recreate her conference afterglow became a space where women in accounting could have the conversations that rarely happen out-loud.

The Success Definitions That Were Never Yours

Nancy has run The Dancing Accountant for 25 years. “Fewer than half of those years have been rosy in any way, shape or form,” she admitted to the audience.

The turning point came from a single crushing conversation. Early in her career, a vendor representative asked about her business model. When Nancy explained she wanted to work in the business, not on it, i.e., no staff, managing schedules, or deliverables, he called her stupid.

“You’re avoiding scaling and you’re leaving money on the table,” he’d said.

Nancy was younger then. She absorbed it the way many of us absorb criticism from someone who sounds authoritative. She believed him.

“At age 54, I can tell you I don’t want to scale. I don’t like scaling. I’m not good at managing a team,” Nancy said. “I’m really, really good at meeting with clients. I’m really good at preparing tax-ready books and teaching people how to do that. So why would I scale?”

She concluded, “I am leaving money on the table. The table can keep it.”

But that vendor’s casual insult cost her ten years. “It took me over a decade to dig out from the mess that I made by listening to what he had to say.”

Co-host Questian Telka’s story is more recent but equally familiar. She’d absorbed the same industry gospel of scale, scale, scale.

“If you don’t have a team of 20, then you’re not really a firm,” she said, mimicking the voices. “You have a job. It’s not a business.”

Nancy cut in, “I think that’s just a shit thing to say.”

“I disagree with it entirely,” Questian shared.

Over the past year, Questian has completely restructured her firm. She let go of her team, offboarded most clients, and pivoted to nonprofit CFO work exclusively. “It’s given me the ability to make a lot more money with a lot fewer clients and a lot less time,” she explained. “Most profit with the least amount of work. I want to enjoy the work I’m doing.”

Why You Need a Board of Directors

Finding courage to rewrite the rules rarely happens alone. That’s where your personal board of directors comes in.

“If you’re the CEO of your own life, who’s your chairman? And who else sits around that table?” Erin asked, sharing the framework that had lit her up after an entrepreneur session.

For Nancy, the chairman is her husband. He’s a software developer who processes her verbal torrents and spots patterns she can’t see. Questian calls him “Nancy’s personal large language model.”

“He is the best large language model ever,” Nancy laughed. “A little less talky than ChatGPT, to be sure.”

The value became clear in one memorable story. Nancy had a famously difficult client. When the client’s lawyer fired Nancy during a dispute, Nancy started arguing to keep the client. Her husband grabbed her arm and whispered, “Nancy, this is freedom. Run!”

“He’d heard all the times I vented,” Nancy explained.

The rest of Nancy’s board includes her “bestie” Melissa Miller Furgeson and her therapist, whom she found in the most accountant way possible.

“I made a spreadsheet of all of the therapists in Chicago,” Nancy confessed. “I kept not choosing one because I was overwhelmed by all of the information.” Finally, she pulled up Google Maps, typed “therapist,” and picked the closest one who wasn’t already her client.

Questian’s board centers on her partner, who pushes her past her comfort zone. At one point, she texted Nancy, “I just borrowed my boyfriend’s balls” to find courage for a business risk.

But your board must have diversity.

“I actually really don’t like the term ‘like-minded people,'” Erin admitted. She values different perspectives, even from something as simple as a LinkedIn poll about a botched swag order. The range of responses helped recalibrate her own reaction.

The Women Still Doing It Alone

When Erin asked what mindset shift the hosts hoped attendees would carry forward, Nancy had her answer: You don’t have to do this alone.

Then she spent the day at WAVE and realized, “You already know you don’t have to do this alone because you’re in this room.” Some attendees had flown across the country to be there.

So Nancy pivoted, “You have other people in your life that need to be taught that they don’t have to do it alone.”

The challenge was direct. When you return to your office, think of one person who needs permission to stop grinding in silence. Reach out to them.

For those ready to find community, the panel offered specific recommendations. Bridging the Gap topped Nancy’s list. It’s where she learned from Nayo Carter-Gray how to take a vacation during tax season. (“I literally live in Mexico for four months during tax season,” Nancy shared.) Local one-day events like WAVE and Advisory Amplified help you meet nearby practitioners who become real connections.

But what if you’re terrified of networking?

“When I first started going to conferences, I couldn’t even talk to anyone. I was too scared,” Questian admitted.

The extroverts will help. Nancy and Sharrin Fuller have a standing offer. If you spot them at any conference, come up and they’ll make sure you meet people. Andrea MacDonald posted online that she’d be “lurking in the corner” as an introvert at WAVE, asking people to find her. That willingness to be vulnerable matters.

There’s also the Accounting Cornerstone Foundation, which provides scholarships for conference attendance. A December fundraiser that Jason Staats matched dollar-for-dollar helped six people attend conferences they couldn’t otherwise afford.

“Give without expecting to receive anything in return,” Questian said, summing up the philosophy underneath it all. 

Write Your Own Rules

One moment during the Q&A captured the energy perfectly. When an audience member expressed interest in selling her firm, Erin asked if anyone might want to buy a firm or clients, and hands shot up across the room. “Somebody take a picture of this!” Nancy shouted, as attendees scrambled to capture all the raised hands. Less than two months later, a deal was closed.

These are the conversations and connections that happen when women in accounting gather to talk honestly about burning out and rebuilding, throwing traditional rules out the window, and creating your own path.

“Figure out your why,” Questian urged. “Define what success is to you and don’t listen to or look at what anyone else is doing.”

After everything shared in this episode, they left the audience and listeners with one question: “What’s one definition of success you’ve personally outgrown?”

Listen to the full episode above for the complete conversation, including rapid-fire Q&A about finding therapists, leadership coaches, and more. Then follow the She Counts podcast on LinkedIn to join the conversation.

What Women in Accounting Gain From Conferences Has Little to Do With CPE Credits

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Picture standing in a crowded expo hall, trying to reach a single vendor booth, but you can’t make it more than a few steps without someone pulling you into a hug. The problem gets so bad that a colleague appoints himself your personal handler, physically steering you through the crowd like a celebrity bodyguard.

That’s what conferences become when you’ve invested in relationships over the years, and it’s exactly what happened to Nancy McClelland at a recent conference when Tony Proctor had to escort her through the expo hall. On the other end of the spectrum, her She Counts podcast co-host Questian Telka once attended Intuit Connect with the goal of walking up to just one person and introducing herself without having a panic attack.

In their latest episode, Nancy and Questian dig into why professional conferences matter so much more than the CPE credits they offer, especially for women in accounting, tax, and bookkeeping. They’re even taking their own advice. She Counts recorded live at WAVESeattle this year, moderated by conference organizer Erin Pohan.

Why Conferences Matter Beyond the CPE Credits

Yes, you can earn CPE credits online. Yes, conferences are expensive. And yes, if you’re an introvert who works happily from home for days without seeing another human, the idea of walking into a ballroom full of strangers might sound terrifying.

But as Questian puts it, CPE is just “the baseline reason to be there.” Nancy earns more than double her required CPE every year, so that’s not why she keeps going back to conference after conference.

For Questian, an admitted introvert who can work alone for days, conferences offer conversations with people who truly understand what she’s all about. “It’s not like when you’re talking to your spouse or significant other, your family member, where it just completely goes over their head,” she explains.

Nancy frames the conference experience through a story from a favorite childhood book, Hail, Hail Camp Timberwood by Ellen Conford. A girl arrives at summer camp feeling completely out of place while everyone else runs around hugging old friends. Then a stranger runs up and hugs her – confiding, “Look, I know we don’t know each other. It’s okay. I was just feeling so left out.” The two start hugging other lost-looking kids, and soon the entire camp is connected.

“Conferences kind of remind me of that,” Nancy says. “I can’t necessarily promise somebody’s going to run up and hug you and pretend like they’re a long lost friend, but it’s a little bit like that.”

These relationships are professionally transformative. Questian met nonprofit expert Greg Bossen at her second Intuit Connect simply by walking up and saying, “Hi, I work with nonprofits. I heard you work with nonprofits.” She had no idea who he was. It still took her five minutes to work up the nerve. That conversation turned into shared clients, co-teaching opportunities, and an ongoing professional partnership.

Nancy met Katie Helle through a community post about the Digital CPA conference. Katie is now helping Nancy navigate her first season with ProConnect Tax. “You’ll meet people you’ll be friends with forever,” she says.

Why Women Need These Spaces Even More

Nancy believes strongly that building these relationships is “two, three, ten, twenty times more important for women than men.”

For women in accounting, conferences offer personal validation and visibility. You can watch another woman take the stage and think, ”I could do that too.”

“Confidence gets built in real time,” Nancy explains. “We get visible, we take up space. We imagine bigger possibilities for ourselves when we see other women.”

The relationships you build become your safety net when life gets complicated. When you’ve invested in real conference relationships, you have people to call when everything falls apart. That’s something a webinar simply can’t deliver.

Questian’s favorite conference moment captures this perfectly. At WAVE-Seattle last year, Jen Posner mentioned listening to a podcast by two women in accounting on her drive up. “Is it called She Counts?” Questian asked. It was. “That’s my and Nancy’s podcast.” Early in the show’s life, that moment proved their work was reaching people in meaningful ways.

Choosing the Right Conference for Your Goals

“The best conference isn’t universal,” Nancy emphasizes. What works brilliantly for one person might leave another feeling completely out of place.

Before registering for anything, ask yourself what you’re actually looking for:

  • Technical learning? Deep dives on tax approaches or software implementation
  • Networking? Meeting potential collaborators and referral partners
  • Inspiration? Keynotes that help you dream bigger
  • Visibility? Opportunities to speak and take up space
  • Tool discovery? Hands-on software evaluation in expo halls
  • Community connection? Women-focused events or niche gatherings

Nancy once sent her senior accountant to a conference with one mission: find the best project management software for their team. That trip led them to Double (formerly Keeper), which Nancy calls “transformational” for their organization.

Size and Format Matter

Not every conference needs to be massive. Local pop-ups and touring events offer accessible starting points. Erin created WAVE-Seattle because she was tired of traveling around the country and wanted something for women in the Pacific Northwest. Jason Staats takes his On Firms events on tour. The Bridging the Gap Road Show and Advisory Amplified travel city to city, offering lower-cost options.

For larger conferences, each has its own personality:

  • Scaling New Heights: Heavy on accounting technology with a massive expo hall
  • Intuit Connect: Essential for QBO-specific firms
  • Digital CPA: Carefully curated vendors in shared social spaces for deeper conversations
  • Bridging the Gap: Focus on sustainable firms with an inclusive, come-as-you-are culture

Don’t overlook industry conferences outside accounting, either. If you specialize in construction or dental practices, you might find your next clients at those events.

Budget Solutions

If cost is the barrier, check out the Accounting Cornerstone Foundation. This nonprofit covers airfare, hotel, and admission for first-time attendees who can’t afford it. Multiple members of Nancy’s Ask a CPA community have already received scholarships and describe the experience as unparalleled. And if you understand the impact conferences make, consider paying it forward and becoming a donor.

Making the Most of Your Conference Experience

You’ve picked your conference. You’ve registered. Now what?

  • Set concrete goals. Come with one to three specific objectives. Maybe it’s meeting five people, evaluating two tools, or attending three  sessions. Nancy brings a notebook listing client issues to resolve and vendors to meet.
  • Connect beforehand. Check whether your online communities, such as Bookkeeping Buds or Ask a CPA, are organizing meetups. Having familiar faces changes everything, especially for introverts.
  • Don’t overpack your schedule. Nancy admits she’s a “maximizer” who spends 2.5 hours planning for each session slot. “Don’t be me,” she cautions. It’s okay to sleep in, take a nap, or skip sessions for hallway conversations.
  • Branch out from familiar faces. Nancy and a friend deliberately arrive early and stay late at conferences to have quality time together. This frees them to meet new people during the event itself.
  • The hallways matter. Relationships form in the informal moments, like meetups, dinners, and wandering at expos. When Tony had to physically steer Nancy through the expo hall because she kept getting pulled into conversations, it proved how deep conference relationships can become.
  • Start small if you’re introverted. A few years ago, Questian’s goal was simply to introduce herself to one person without panicking. That single step catalyzed speaking engagements, teaching opportunities, and eventually co-hosting a podcast.

Your Next Conference Could Change Everything

Sometimes the most valuable part of a conference isn’t what you learn, but who you become after being in that room.

CPE is the floor, not the ceiling. The real value comes from relationships, visibility, confidence, and belonging you can’t build behind a desk. Choose strategically based on what you need right now. Go in with goals. Connect with your community. Give yourself grace. Push yourself to meet one new person, even if it takes five minutes to work up the nerve.

These spaces are incredibly valuable for women in accounting. Seeing other women lead, share vulnerably, and succeed gives you permission to imagine bigger possibilities. The relationships become collaborations, partnerships, and the safety net you need when life gets complicated.

This profession can be isolating, especially if you’re running your own firm or navigating spaces where you’re one of only a few women. Conferences are an investment in who you’re becoming.

Your Camp Timberwood moment might be one introduction away.

Listen to the full episode for Nancy and Questian’s complete conference recommendations.

Nobody Is Going to Hand You Power, So Here’s How to Build Executive Presence on Your Own Terms

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Lindsay Patterson’s very first day as a reporter should have been routine. Twenty years ago, she walked into a small community meeting in Uvalde, Texas, fresh out of college, holding a notepad and recorder, ready to cover a state representative’s remarks for the local paper. She sat down, pen ready. Then the representative stood up, scanned the room, and asked whether anyone from the Uvalde Leader-News was present. When Lindsay raised her hand, he announced he wouldn’t speak as long as she was in the room.

She didn’t stand her ground or fight back. She walked out, sat in her car, and cried.

Today, Lindsay is the CEO of CPA QualityPro, a compliance platform that helps firms navigate licensure and CPE requirements. She’s served as executive vice president at the Institute of Internal Auditors and spent years at the AICPA working on accounting standards and the CPA exam. She holds multiple certifications, including CPA, CIA, and CAE, all earned while working full time and raising kids.

In Episode 30 of She Counts, the real-talk podcast for women in accounting, Lindsay joined hosts Questian Telka and Nancy McClelland to unpack a frustrating phrase in professional development: executive presence. It’s the vague feedback that shows up in performance reviews as the reason you didn’t get promoted, without anyone explaining what it means or how to get it.

Women are often told that executive presence means adopting traits traditionally associated with male leaders. Lindsay argues that the real measure is much simpler: whether the people around you leave interactions believing you’re the right person for the job.

 

Redefining Executive Presence

Many of us absorbed a version of executive presence without questioning it. “I had a very traditional view of executive presence. It’s like the three-piece suit guy pulling out a pocket watch,” Lindsay said, admitting where she started. “He’s speaking aggressively and assertively. I’m like, oh, that guy has executive presence.”

Nancy shared her own assumptions. For women, she thought it meant Chanel bags, specific jewelry, and perfect polish. “I will tell you, if we’re going to judge me on my ability to make that happen, I will fail,” she said. “I look like I’m dressed up for a high school play or something.”

But Lindsay’s working definition is simpler. “If you were to distill it into simple terms, it’s just instilling confidence in people. Are people confident I can do a good job? Can I lead the team? Can I deliver results or do what I say I am going to do?”

The research backs this up. Lindsay cited the Coqual findings that gravitas, or how you present yourself, is what people overwhelmingly evaluate for executive presence. Communication makes up about a third. Appearance is only 5%.

This is good news for anyone worried their personal style disqualifies them from leadership. Lindsay owns a fully sequined black suit and has worn floor-length tutu gowns to office meetings. She’s also been a CPA Practice Advisor 40 Under 40 honoree and runs a successful company. The two things work together just fine.

But Lindsay was clear that executive presence is not “overtalking people, interrupting, being really aggressive and mean.” She added an important caveat. “I say that’s not what it should look like. But we have to recognize it is viewed that way in some office cultures.”

She shared a story that made Nancy ask if it was real. At one company, a man criticized another executive for wearing a Rolex because it showed “new money.” If you wanted to instill confidence as a leader, apparently you needed at least a Patek Philippe. “What?” Lindsay said. She didn’t last long in that culture.

The story might be absurd, but it shows something important. In many places, executive presence gets defined by an unspoken code written by and for one specific kind of leader. When that code becomes the standard for measuring women, the game is rigged from the start.

The Double Bind: When the Rules Work Against You

Even with a better definition, women face a structural problem. The same behaviors that signal confidence in men get labeled as aggression in women.

“How often do you hear in performance reviews that a male was aggressive? Never. That gets assigned to women,” Lindsay stated plainly. Being direct, standing firm, and pushing back in meetings gets men praised for “standing up for their beliefs” while women get called “difficult” (or worse).

Then there’s what Questian called the competence-warmth trap, referencing Vanessa Van Edwards’ research. If you’re warm and approachable, people see you as less competent. You need both warmth and competence to hit the sweet spot, but too much warmth works against you.

The research on competence perception is even tougher. Lindsay delivered her “good news, bad news” moment. “If I show up and I am just as good as my male colleague, I’m probably going to be viewed as less competent. And there is a whole body of research to show this.”

Women don’t just need to meet the bar. They need to clearly exceed it, just to be seen as equal. That means overpreparing is essential.

The dynamics shift with race, too. Lindsay acknowledged their position, noting, “We’re all three white women.” She’s seen firsthand what she can get away with that a Black female colleague cannot. Nancy put numbers to it. If white women prepare at 120%, Black women face pressure to deliver at 170%.

Then came the episode’s most provocative moment. Questian asked if coaching women on executive presence puts the burden on them to fix a structural problem. Lindsay’s answer was direct. “Yes, we’re asking women to do this. You know why? Because nobody else is going to do it for us. People in power are not just going to hand us power. That’s not how power systems work.”

“The world’s not going to dominate itself,” Nancy said, summing it up.

But Lindsay distinguished between assimilation and strategy. The goal is to work strategically within existing systems by pushing boundaries, gaining influence, and reshaping culture from within. “As we rise to power, not only are we going to instill our own cultural norms, but then you’ll start to see cultures change.”

Your Practical Playbook: Build Presence Through Preparation

Lindsay’s closing advice was the episode’s most powerful line. “Confidence is just preparation. If you do something enough times, you will come across as confident. You will have that executive presence.”

Executive presence is a skill built through practice. Here’s Lindsay’s concrete playbook:

  • Start with an audit. Record yourself before a difficult conversation or presentation. Watch the playback and ask, Does my body language say what I want? Do I sound knowledgeable? Am I the confident person I want this audience to see? You likely already have the material, since most meetings are now recorded on Zoom.
  • Separate sound from sight. Listen to your recording with no video. Just evaluate your speaking. Then watch with no sound to evaluate body language. Then watch both together. This lets you see what each channel actually communicates.
  • Rehearse with your circle. If you have trusted professional friends, use them. Practice difficult conversations. Do dress rehearsals for interviews. Ask for feedback on how you plan to challenge your boss. Lindsay does this with her own circle, and she extended an invitation to listeners. “If you don’t have that and you’re listening and you’re like, ‘I have this interview coming up,’ literally connect with me on LinkedIn. I’m happy to help. Other women did that for me.”
  • Prepare for disruption. Anticipate what typically derails you. “Is Bob going to interrupt me like he always does? Well, how am I going to respond?” Plan your response. When the moment comes, hold your ground without escalating.
  • Master the context. Your presence should shift based on your audience. As Nancy noted, the best version of you when meeting with nervous small-business owners differs from the one you use when meeting with a board chair. Both are authentic, but context defines what instills confidence.

For virtual meetings, have the camera on (especially when presenting), use good lighting, choose a quiet location, and avoid multitasking. Nancy made the trust connection clear. If she can’t see someone’s eyes on Zoom, she doesn’t trust them.

In person, make sure your shoulders are back and your head is up. Look confident and take up space. Lindsay admitted to intentional “manspreading” in meetings. “I have every right to be here, and I’m going to show that with my body.”

Don’t forget the practical details. Rehearse in the shoes you’ll actually wear. Nancy learned this after nearly injuring herself while presenting in heels. Now she presents in go-go boots that match her Dancing Accountant brand. Lindsay shared a cautionary tale about a team member who wore a tube top to an external Zoom meeting. Over a year later, the client still talked about the tube top instead of the meeting content.

The Scared Child Inside Us All

Lindsay shared what she wishes someone had told her 20 years ago. “Most people are faking it. We are just doing our best, trying to get by.”

Nancy connected this to waiting for the moment she’d become a confident adult. “When I realized that line doesn’t exist and a lot of us are carrying that scared child inside us until we die, then you’re like, oh, cool. Well, then I can start taking care of that scared kid because I’m also a confident adult.”

Lindsay offered one more insight from experience. “You could be the most round, juiciest peach on the tree. And there’s always going to be somebody who doesn’t like peaches.” You won’t be everyone’s cup of tea. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you can focus on instilling confidence in the people who matter to your goals.

Your Presence Is What People Remember

Executive presence has been weaponized for too long as vague feedback that holds women to standards built for someone else. But Lindsay’s definition offers us something useful: instilling confidence in the people around you.

The double bind is real. The bar for perceived competence is measurably higher for women and higher still for women of color. These are structural realities, not personal failures. Recognizing them means understanding the terrain so you can navigate it.

The antidote is preparation. Record yourself. Rehearse with trusted peers. Anticipate the disruptors. Adapt to context. You build confidence through repetition.

No one will hand women the keys to power. The work of getting inside the system and reshaping it falls on us. As more women rise by carrying their own authentic executive presence, they can redefine what leadership looks like for those to come.

Questian closed with Maya Angelou’s words: “I’ve learned that people will forget what you said. People will forget what you did. But people will never forget how you made them feel.”

That’s executive presence.

Listen to the full episode, and if you take one thing from this conversation, share it on the She Counts Podcast LinkedIn page. What will you try differently the next time you walk into a room or join a Zoom call?

What Losing Your Best Bookkeeper Reveals About How You Price Yourself

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Alicia Katz Pollock, founder of Royalwise, published author, and host of The Unofficial QuickBooks Accountants Podcast, spent two years training a bookkeeper named Brenda. It started as a coaching relationship, but ended up with Brenda earning $10,000 a month and giving notice because she’d outgrown Alicia’s “tiny little clients.”

That’s absolutely a success story. But when Alicia shared this story with Questian Telka and Nancy McClelland on a special crossover episode between The Unofficial QuickBooks Accountants Podcast and She Counts, they heard something Alicia hadn’t noticed.

“Oh my God, I’m undervaluing myself,” Alicia admitted. “But it wasn’t part of my narrative, and I wasn’t thinking about it that way at all.”

That moment of recognition became the foundation for a brutally honest conversation. Three experienced professionals with decades of combined expertise discovered they all struggle with the same thing: chronically underpricing themselves. As a result, Alicia decided to build a paid bookkeeper incubator that turns her expertise into a scalable training model.

The episode dug into the invisible forces that cap the growth of technically brilliant professionals who can untangle any set of books but can’t bring themselves to charge what that skill is worth. As Alicia put it, “The ability to expand really happens when you step into your own worth.”

 

When Your Best Employee Outgrows You

Brenda’s journey from a coaching client to a $10,000-a-month earner unfolded gradually over two years. She asked insightful questions during Alicia’s coaching sessions. Then she began handling Alicia’s smaller bookkeeping clients. She bought a few personal finance accounts from Alicia’s book of business. She landed her own clients. Finally, a church hired her for $4,000 a month.

“Hey, Alicia, I need to give you notice,” Brenda said. “I can’t do your tiny little clients anymore.”

Alicia’s first reaction was panic. “What am I going to do now? Am I going to take these back and do them myself? Am I going to sell off my book of business?”

Nancy, who’s run a Chicago CPA firm for 25 years, had her own parallel story. Her first employee left without warning to start a competing firm after Nancy trained her from scratch. “I taught her everything she knew,” Nancy said. “And she didn’t tell me that’s what she was doing.”

When Nancy shared her frustration with Hector Garcia, he offered another perspective: “Yeah, but what if you don’t teach them everything they need to know and they stay?”

Questian, founder of a fractional CFO firm focused on nonprofits, cut through the emotion. “When that takes place, it forces us to realize the value of what we’ve built.”

That’s the mirror moment. When someone you’ve trained walks away making more than you charged for the same work, it stops being a staffing problem. It becomes a pricing problem.

Rather than shrinking after Brenda’s departure, Alicia asked herself, “If it worked for Brenda, can I repeat the success? If it works for one person, can I scale it?”

Why We Undervalue Ourselves

When Questian asked why technically excellent bookkeepers undervalue themselves, Alicia’s answer was immediate: “Human beings are wired for insecurity.”

Nancy wanted that line as a promotional clip. But the conversation identified three specific patterns that keep even accomplished accounting professionals from charging what they should.

Poverty consciousness hits hard

When Alicia calculated her incubator program’s value at roughly $19,000 a year, her first thought was “Who the heck is going to pay $19,000 to be part of this?” The discomfort was physical. “Everybody wants to spend a minimum amount of money,” she said. She worried about being seen as greedy.

She’s not alone. Nancy’s husband jokes she’ll eventually come home with a live chicken from bartering with clients who can’t pay. Then one client actually started raising backyard chickens and gave them eggs. Alicia’s husband trades Apple training for eggs, too. Someone recently told Questian she “runs her business like a nonprofit.” 

“It’s not entirely untrue,” she admits.

Helper mentality runs deep

When your identity centers on serving others, asking for significant money feels wrong. Alicia genuinely worried that some clients would only do bookkeeping if she kept prices at rock-bottom levels. Nancy confessed she hasn’t embraced value pricing “at all.” The instinct to help can override business sense.

The expertise blind spot might be worst

Nancy explained it perfectly. “Oh yeah, I know how to do that. It only takes me ten minutes.” When years of expertise compress complex tasks into quick execution, experts discount the outcome’s value because the effort felt minimal. But clients aren’t paying for your ten minutes. They’re paying for the decade that made ten minutes possible.

Reading Blair Enns’s book The Four Conversations at Hector Garcia’s Reframe conference, Alicia encountered the expert’s mantra: “I am the expert. I am the prize. I am on a mission to help. I can only do that if you let me lead. I accept that not all will follow.”

“My value is not me being able to untangle complicated books,” Alicia realized. “That’s what I do. And it has value, but that’s not my value.” Her real value includes a master’s in teaching, two decades of QuickBooks expertise, practice management knowledge, and industry relationships so deep she can text Intuit product managers directly.

Nancy connected this to value pricing. “When everything depends on you and your hands and your knowledge, your time fills up, and there’s a cap. But when you multiply your expertise through others, your impact expands.”

Building the Incubator

Alicia did something most business owners wouldn’t dare. She asked her community whether her idea was any good.

At a Royalwise OWLS membership meeting, with Brenda present to tell her own story, Alicia asked, “Is this a good idea or a stupid idea?” The response was immediate. Members wanted hands-on experience with real clients because “every single one is different.”

The training model follows a deliberate progression. In month one, Alicia does the bookkeeping while interns watch. In month two and beyond, interns do the bookkeeping while Alicia talks them through it. By month five or six, they work independently, with Alicia only reviewing.

But the incubator goes beyond bookkeeping mechanics. She’s enrolling interns in Mariette Martinez’s accounting lifecycle course. She set up a roundtable with business coach Richard Roppa-Roberts without Alicia present so interns have a safe space for support or, as Alicia put it, “a grievance panel if it’s needed.” Everyone takes her hands-on QuickBooks training course built from her published textbook.

The financial structure makes it work for everyone. Interns earn 60% of client fees as salaried employees. Her lawyer insisted on employee classification, which meant Alicia unexpectedly doubled her company’s size and had to navigate employment registrations across multiple states. “Some of them were like twice as much,” she said about certain states’ requirements. “But for me, that’s exciting because I’m learning something new.”

She secured sponsorship from Double and converted it entirely into scholarships. She offered payment tiers and prorated fees for existing members.

The pricing felt right when she considered Brenda’s trajectory. If working with Alicia can lead to $10,000 in monthly income, then $19,000 annually is a clear investment.

Behind the incubator sits strategy. With 10 to 15 years until retirement, Alicia wants something she can sell. “Right now, Royalwise is based on Jamie and me. We are the product. But that’s not something you can sell.”

She’s also thinking about the profession. With outsourcing and AI reducing opportunities for US-based bookkeepers, the incubator invests in domestic talent. “We need to have talented people here.”

This is explicitly a pilot program. “We are building this together,” she told her cohort. Her exit strategy is still up in the air. It might continue with new cohorts, become permanent staff, or scale differently.

Questian, navigating her own business transformation, offered the episode’s emotional core. “I’m on the right track because I am absolutely terrified.”

Nancy pushed back against advice to “not be afraid.” Fear is human. Your brain is protecting you. The answer is to act anyway. “Be afraid,” Nancy said. “And do it anyway.”

You Get What You Have the Courage to Ask For

Three successful women in accounting discovered (again) that even people others admire struggle with insecurities. Alicia didn’t realize she was undervaluing herself until Questian and Nancy reflected her story back to her. Nancy still catches herself working for free. Questian is navigating changes she’s not ready to name publicly.

None have figured it out. All are moving forward anyway.

Here’s what their conversation teaches us:

  • Your best employee leaving is data, not a disaster. When someone you’ve trained outgrows your practice, it reveals what you’ve built and whether you’re pricing accordingly.
  • Technical mastery isn’t business authority. Knowing QuickBooks doesn’t mean you know how to price services or lead others. Those require separate skills, community, and practice.
  • Undervaluation has specific causes. Poverty consciousness, helper mentality, and the expertise blind spot are patterns, not flaws. You can interrupt patterns once you see them.
  • Scaling expertise multiplies impact. Training others creates value for clients, team members, the profession, and yourself.
  • Fear is a compass, not a stop sign. If the next step terrifies you, you’re probably headed in the right direction.

The accounting profession faces change. Outsourcing and AI are reshaping US-based bookkeeping. Professionals investing in domestic talent, including Alicia’s incubator, are investing in the industry’s future.

But these breakthroughs didn’t happen alone. Every pivot came from honesty about fears, mistakes, or unknowns. Community and vulnerability are business strategies.

The episode closed with Oprah Winfrey’s quote, “You get in life what you have the courage to ask for.”

So ask. Ask for fees reflecting your expertise. Ask your community about your ideas. Ask for help building what you can’t build alone.

Listen to the full episode and share your own undervaluation story in the Unofficial QuickBooks Accountants Podcast LinkedIn group. When you undervalued yourself, what helped you move past it?

If you’re thinking “who would pay me for what I know,” you’re in good company. Three experts had the same thought, caught themselves, and chose to charge anyway.

Alicia Katz Pollock’s Royalwise OWLS (On-Demand Web-based Learning Solutions) is the industry’s premier portal for top-notch QuickBooks Online training with CPE for accounting firms, bookkeepers, and small business owners. Visit Royalwise OWLS, where learning QBO is a HOOT! 

What Happens When Your Best Employee Outgrows You?

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Alicia Katz Pollock teaches thousands of accounting professionals how to use QuickBooks. She’s built a training empire at Royalwise, published textbooks, and earned the unofficial title of “QuickBooks Queen.” So when she joined the hosts of She Counts for a special crossover episode, she thought she knew exactly what story she was telling.

She was wrong.

“Oh my God, I’m undervaluing myself,” Alicia said after hosts Questian Telka and Nancy McClelland reflected what they heard. “It wasn’t part of my narrative. And I wasn’t thinking about it that way at all.”

This crossover episode brings together She Counts and the Unofficial QuickBooks Accountants Podcast for a conversation that digs into why technically brilliant bookkeepers chronically sell themselves short, and what it takes to finally stop.

When Success Becomes a Mirror

Alicia’s story starts with a bookkeeper she calls Brenda. Brenda was a coaching client in Alicia’s Royalwise On-Demand Web-based Learning Solutions (OWLS) program who had the quality Alicia prizes most: curiosity.

“I could tell she was thinking about the material,” Alicia explained. “Even if she didn’t know what to do, she knew there was something that needed to be done.”

At the time, Alicia was running a small bookkeeping practice alongside her training business. She had about 30 clients, mostly micro businesses, solopreneurs, and therapists. They’re the kind of clients who say, “I don’t need a bookkeeper” or “I can’t afford a bookkeeper,” even though they really need someone to handle monthly reconciliations.

So Alicia brought Brenda on to help. For two years, they developed systems together: Slack communication, technology processes and review protocols. Brenda got better and better. Then she started growing beyond Alicia’s small clients. She bought a couple of Alicia’s personal-books clients that didn’t fit the Royalwise model. She picked up her own $400-a-month client, then a $1,000-a-month client. Finally, a church hired her for $4,000 a month for bookkeeping and administration.

“All of a sudden, she found herself making $10,000 a month,” Alicia said. “And she’s like, ‘Hey, Alicia, I need to give you notice. I can’t do your tiny little clients anymore.'”

Nancy’s reaction captured what everyone listening probably felt. “Two completely opposing feelings at the same time. On the one hand, a huge freaking success story. On the other hand, you taught her everything she knows, and now she’s leaving.”

This wasn’t abstract for Nancy. Her own long-time employee of eight years gave notice just two days before recording. “I feel left behind. I feel trapped,” Nancy admitted.

But then Nancy shared wisdom from Hector Garcia that helped her reframe the problem. When she complained about training someone who left, Hector responded: “Yeah, but what if you don’t teach them everything they need to know and they stay?”

That’s the real mirror moment. As Questian observed, “It forces us to realize the value of what we’ve built.”

From Loss to Expansion

Faced with losing Brenda, Alicia had safe options. She could take the clients back herself, sell the book of business, or drop bookkeeping entirely. She chose none of them.

“If it worked for Brenda, can I repeat the success?” she asked herself. “Can I scale it?”

Showing remarkable vulnerability, Alicia went to her Royalwise OWLS members (the people who pay her for coaching). She asked point-blank, “Is this a good idea or is this a stupid idea?” Brenda was actually there to tell her own story.

The response was enthusiastic. Members said things like “I would love to study under you” and “I would love hands-on experience in real bookkeeping scenarios because every single one is different.”

So Alicia built something ambitious. The incubator model works like this: First, trainees watch while she does the bookkeeping. Then they do it while she talks them through it. After five or six months, they work independently while she reviews.

Beyond bookkeeping, the program includes:

  • Mariette Martinez’s accounting lifecycle course (because knowing QuickBooks isn’t the same as running a practice)
  • Richard Roppa-Roberts Roundtable Labs for peer support
  • Alicia’s intensive hands-on QuickBooks training
  • A grievance space where trainees can discuss problems without Alicia present

“I love that you created a space for grievances,” Questian said. 

The $19,000 Question

When Alicia calculated what all these components would cost if purchased separately, the number came to roughly $19,000 per year.

“Who the heck is going to pay $19,000 to be part of this?” was her first thought.

Questian pushed, “How did it make you feel at that number?”

“I was distinctly uncomfortable with asking anybody for that,” Alicia admitted.

Nancy dug deeper. Was it fear of being seen as greedy? Alicia identified multiple layers, including poverty consciousness, a desire not to price anyone out, and the tension between the need for fair compensation and the need to keep opportunities accessible.

But the trainees are paid employees earning 60% of client fees for their work. When Alicia’s lawyer said they had to be employees rather than contractors, she suddenly found herself hiring five part-time salaried employees, effectively doubling her company overnight.

She also secured sponsorship from Dext to create scholarships, offered payment plans with discounts, and gave credits to existing members. People signed up across all payment options.

What ultimately justified the price was Brenda’s success. “The demonstrated outcome of working with me is somebody who is pulling in $10,000 a month,” Alicia reasoned. “$19,000 a year is a valuable investment to be able to get to that place.”

Why We Can’t See Our Own Worth

A notable pattern emerged during this conversation: None of the hosts could see their own blind spots without help.

Alicia didn’t recognize her burnout until hearing a She Counts episode. She didn’t see her undervaluation until Questian pointed it out. Nancy admitted she’d still be doing every webinar for free if Questian hadn’t pushed her to charge. And someone recently told Questian she runs her business like a nonprofit.

“Human beings are wired for insecurity,” Alicia said simply.

“You can look at the QuickBooks Queen herself right here struggling with undervaluing herself,” Nancy said, putting the conversation in perspective. “To me, that says I’m not alone.”

The conversation also brought up a critical distinction. Technical mastery doesn’t equal business leadership. As Nancy said, “Technical mastery of something doesn’t prepare us for stepping into authority and leadership.”

Alicia drew the parallel. “People think that because they know how to use QuickBooks, they know how to do bookkeeping. They’re not the same.”

Do It Anyway

What makes this story powerful is that Alicia is building her pilot program publicly, in real-time, with complete transparency about not having all the answers.

“I got the idea two months ago,” she said. “Asked my folks six weeks ago. Got the yeses and have been actively putting it in place.”

She doesn’t yet know whether there will be a new cohort next year or whether trainees will become permanent staff or become trainers themselves. “I don’t know what next year is going to hold,” Alicia said.

This level of public uncertainty would terrify most people. But as Questian shared about her own business transition, “I’m on the right track because I am absolutely terrified.”

Nancy pushed back against toxic positivity. “Don’t tell somebody not to be afraid. Of course we are afraid. Our brains are trying to protect us.” The point isn’t to eliminate fear. It’s to act despite it.

“The ability to expand really happens when you step into your own worth,” Alicia said, connecting every thread.

Your Turn to Look in the Mirror

This conversation between three accomplished women in accounting proves we all have blind spots about our value, and we need community to see them clearly.

Alicia’s story shows that when someone you’ve trained outgrows you, it’s not a failure; it’s proof of the value you create. The question is, are you capturing the value you clearly know how to build?

Listen to the full episode to hear all the vulnerability, specific numbers, and moments where the hosts surprised themselves with their own revelations.

Then ask yourself: What’s an example of when you’ve undervalued yourself, and how did you move past it? Share your answer on the She Counts LinkedIn page or in the Unofficial QuickBooks Accountants Podcast LinkedIn group to keep this conversation going.

Because if the QuickBooks Queen can have this blind spot, you’re allowed to have yours too. The difference is what you do once someone helps you see it.