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The Earmark Podcast

Smart Accounting Firms Are Done Being Yes People

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Picture an  accounting firm that keeps partner salaries locked away like state secrets. Staff spend years wondering what partnership actually pays. Meanwhile, another firm down the street posts everyone’s salary on a public leaderboard. The path to partnership comes with clear milestones and transparent rewards.

This stark difference shows just one way “renegade” firms are shaking up the accounting profession.

In episode 104 of the Earmark Podcast, recorded live during the Advisory Amplified tour in Austin, host Blake Oliver digs into what it means to be a “renegade” in accounting. He’s joined by Madeline Reeves, founder and CEO of Fearless Foundry, and Wesley McDonald, go-to-market leader at Relay. Together, they explore how forward-thinking firms and tech companies challenge everything we thought we knew about running an accounting practice.

What Makes a Firm “Renegade”?

So what exactly is a renegade firm? Reeves has worked with many of them, and she has a clear answer.

“A renegade firm is leading their clients to somewhere new and is not settling for the ways things have always been done,” she explains. These firms challenge the status quo. They see tech companies as partners, not just vendors. And they push their clients and technology partners to do better.

These firms also stand out in unexpected ways. Take Lance CPA (now part of Revel CPA). When they signed new clients in the brewery and hospitality space, they didn’t just send a standard engagement letter. They delivered beautiful welcome kits complete with custom beer glasses and cool socks. It was their way of saying this isn’t your typical accounting relationship.

But being a renegade goes deeper than nice gestures. These firms also excel at saying no.

“A lot of firms are dedicated to being acts-of-service people,” Reeves notes. “They become a little bit of “yes people” or people pleasers. But the real renegade firms are like, ‘I do not do that service or I do not work with that industry.’”

They’re not trying to be everything to everyone. They focus on being exceptional at what they do best.

Taking the Lead with Clients

Traditional firms often let clients call the shots. They use whatever software the client prefers. They adapt to the client’s processes. They follow rather than lead.

Renegade firms flip this completely around.

Reeves puts it perfectly: “When I go to the dentist, I’m not telling the dentist, ‘No, don’t use that drill in my mouth.’ I don’t know how to do dentistry. So if you’re an accountant, it’s your job to lead your clients.”

These firms come to the table saying, “This is how we do this job well and effectively for you. If the goal is advisory services, this is how we get there better, faster.”

When you’re the professional, you set the standards for how the work gets done.

Breaking Open the Black Box of Compensation

One radical change happening in renegade firms involves money—specifically, who knows what about everyone’s pay.

“On the most successful sales teams I’ve been a part of, there’s a leaderboard that shows exactly how much people have attained in their salary in that quarter,” McDonald shares. “Which is a wild concept to think about in some industries.”

Oliver points out the obvious problem with traditional secrecy: “One of the biggest secrets is how much the partners make. But if we want everybody to want to be a partner, why don’t we tell them?”

It’s not just about knowing the numbers, though. Reeves emphasizes that firms need “not just pay transparency but pathway transparency.” People need to see the clear steps to advancement, not just the end goal.

McDonald, drawing from his tech experience, says promotions shouldn’t be about time in seat. “You’re ready to move to the next level as soon as you’re performing at that level.”

This represents a huge shift from the traditional model where you might wait five years for a promotion regardless of your performance.

Building Teams That Actually Want to Work Together

The old model pits high performers against each other. Remember those weekly emails showing who billed the most hours? Competition is the traditional way to drive performance.

Renegade firms take a different approach.

“If you have people on your team who think the only way up is their own performance, your whole team is going to be fighting against each other,” Reeves explains. She learned this building sales teams. When she tied part of compensation to team performance, not just individual metrics, “We saw performance double because people were suddenly willing to turn to the teammate next to them and show them what was working.”

This collaborative approach is essential for attracting younger professionals. As Reeves notes, “There are a lot of young people who are coming out of school, and there’s nothing exciting to them about working 90 hours a week during tax season. They’re like, ‘hard pass.’”

“You can tell people to do the work and you can pay people to do the work,” Reeves says. “But to actually get people to want to show up and fully do the work, it has to align around the things that genuinely motivate them as a human.”

When Banking Becomes a Partnership

Banking isn’t usually seen as innovative. But companies like Relay are changing that, starting with how they work with accountants.

Most people choose banks for passive reasons. “It’s because I know that bank exists or they’re down the street or my parents bank there,” McDonald observes.

But what if your bank actually worked for you and your accountant?

“Relay is purpose built for our accounting partners and their clients,” McDonald explains. Traditional banks gatekeep information. Relay surfaces it to accountants so they can actually help their clients.

The difference is stark. “I’m not even sure how I would give feedback to Chase or Bank of America or Wells Fargo,” Oliver admits. In contrast, McDonald says, “If a partner of ours has an idea and they bring it to us, we will act on that idea.”

This isn’t just talk. Being a champion for SMEs and their partners is one of Relay’s seven core values. They were the first banking platform to go to market specifically through accounting professionals.

Reeves shares her own frustration with traditional banking. She wanted to support a local community bank that shared her values. But they had no online banking. Getting statements required writing emails to a banker.

“If you’re really serving small business at the core of who you are,” she says, “making me have to email a banker to get a bank statement isn’t serving small business. That’s creating extra manual work for me or for my accountant.”

Learning from Renegade Mistakes

Being a renegade means trying new things. And that means making mistakes.

Reeves shares a particularly painful one. She built what she thought was an innovative compensation model, paying top performers a percentage of deals they closed. Then she discovered a senior employee was committing fraud, jacking up prices in their proposal system to increase her cut.

Reeves recalls discovering the fraud just before a major conference and having to lock down all her banking immediately. The experience taught her to “trust but verify.” You need systems to ensure people act the right way, even those you trust.

McDonald shares his own revelation about breaking from the traditional path. He started his career as a fixed income broker. But as he earned promotions, he looked around and realized, “everyone there had been doing it for 30 years. I thought, ‘Can I do this for 25 more years?’”

He chose the non-linear path instead, moving between sales, consulting, and building teams. “I had stopped my learning journey,” he reflects. “I want to be a lifelong learner.”

Oliver’s “mistake” was majoring in music at the most expensive university in the country. But the experience taught him how to teach himself anything—a skill that proved invaluable in accounting. “If you can sit in a practice room for six hours a day and learn how to play a concerto, that’s all just breaking problems down into literally measure by measure, note by note.”

The Path Forward

The renegade firms discussed in this episode aren’t making small tweaks to the traditional model. They’re rebuilding it from scratch.

They’re becoming strategic leaders who guide rather than follow clients, creating transparent cultures where collaboration beats competition, and embracing technology companies as true partners rather than necessary evils.

With younger professionals rejecting traditional firm culture and clients demanding strategic guidance over compliance work, the old model is dying. The renegade approach offers a sustainable alternative that actually addresses why people leave accounting.

These innovations are happening right now at thriving firms. From brewery-themed welcome kits to banking platforms built for accountant collaboration, these changes prove accounting firms can create experiences that rival any modern service business.

Want to hear the complete conversation? Listen to the full episode. You’ll get the full story of how Reeves uncovered fraud through her proposal system, Olivers’s journey from professional musician to accounting innovator, and detailed strategies for implementing renegade principles in your own firm.

The Accounting Platform That Achieves 96.5% Automation Reveals How They Did It

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“No one’s going to be outcompeted by the AI itself. You are going to be outcompeted by firms that really adopt this aggressively,” warns Jeff Seibert, whose company just hit 96.5% accuracy in automated bookkeeping—something that seemed impossible just a few years ago.

In this milestone 100th episode of the Earmark Podcast, Blake Oliver sits down with Jeff Seibert, co-founder and CEO of Digits, to explore how AI is fundamentally changing the architecture of accounting software. Seibert brings fresh eyes to accounting—he previously led consumer product at Twitter and built Crashlytics (now running on six billion smartphones). His frustration was simple: Why could product teams access real-time analytics while business owners waited weeks for black-and-white spreadsheets?

Founded in 2018, Digits set out to reimagine accounting in the age of machine learning. While traditional software treats transactions as meaningless text in rigid databases, Digits achieves near-perfect automation by treating financial data as interconnected objects that learn from patterns across millions of transactions.

The 30-Year-Old Problem Holding Back Accounting

As Seibert sees it, the fundamental issue facing bookkeeping automation is that every major accounting platform—QuickBooks, Xero, and even NetSuite—runs on relational databases designed 20-30 years ago. These systems treat transactions as simple text entries with no understanding of what they mean.

“QuickBooks is just going to see an Uber transaction as “U-b-e-r”. It just sees text,” Seibert explains. “It doesn’t understand the data, it doesn’t know what Uber actually is.”

This limitation explains why Intuit, with all its resources, has yet to deliver meaningful automation. The answer is architectural. Each QuickBooks company exists in its own isolated database, preventing the software from learning patterns across businesses. The constraints run so deep that QuickBooks still can’t handle having a vendor and customer with the same name—it appears they chose “name” as the primary database key decades ago.

Digits takes a completely different approach using what’s called a vector graph data model. Everything becomes an object—Uber is an object, your expense categories are objects, your bank accounts are objects. Transactions become connections between these objects, creating a web of financial relationships the AI can understand.

This mirrors how large language models (LLMs) work, converting transactions into vector embeddings, essentially plotting them in multi-dimensional space where similar items cluster together. When trained on 170 million transactions representing nearly $1 trillion in business activity, patterns emerge that would be obvious to humans but invisible to traditional software.

“When you have that scale of data and you see how everyone has booked Uber before, you start to see patterns,” Seibert notes. “The model starts learning. If it sees Lyft in your accounting for this client, it then knows how to book Uber.”

How AI Agents Actually Work (Hint: Like Clever Interns)

The accounting world is buzzing about “AI agents,” but what are they really? Seibert explains, “An agent is simply an LLM that you run in a loop. You give it a task, it attempts the task, you ask if it completed it. If not, it continues until it’s done.”

Think of them as clever interns who never get tired. Digits has been running these agents in production since January 2024, primarily for researching unfamiliar transactions.

The system uses three layers of intelligence. First, it checks if this specific client has seen this transaction before. If yes, it books the transaction exactly the same way. Second, if the transaction is new to this client but familiar to the platform, it uses its global model trained across all users. Third, for completely novel transactions, the agent literally Googles them.

“What would you do as an accountant? You would probably Google it,” Seibert explains. “What do our agents do? They literally Google it, research the transaction, build a dossier about it.”

As a result, only 4-5% of transactions now require human review, compared to the 20% that typically slip through even well-maintained rule-based systems. Notably, the system maintains strict confidence thresholds. Any transaction it is unsure about gets flagged for human review. It never guesses when uncertain.

The upcoming reconciliation feature shows how sophisticated these agents have become. The system pulls statements directly from banks or extracts them from PDFs, then matches transactions with pixel-level precision. “You can literally click on the transaction and see it on the statement and vice versa,” Seibert says. This builds trust with accountants who need to see exactly where the numbers come from.

What This Means for Your Firm’s Future

As of August, Digits hit 96.5% accuracy, up from 93.5% in spring. Each percentage point represents thousands of transactions that no longer need human touch. But it begs the question: how do you price services when the work happens automatically?

“If you’re charging purely per hour right now, then automation may make that challenging,” Seibert acknowledges. But forward-thinking firms are already adapting. They’re moving to fixed-fee models for routine work like monthly closes, which become increasingly profitable as automation reduces time investment. Many use a hybrid approach, charging fixed fees for the close, and hourly rates for advisory work.

At a flat $100 per month (with volume discounts for accounting partners), Digits offers predictable pricing that contrasts sharply with QuickBooks’ constant increases. The platform even offers specialized SKUs for ledger-only or reporting-only clients, accommodating diverse practice needs.

The staffing implications are real but not apocalyptic. Junior bookkeeping roles focused on data entry will diminish. But Seibert points out this could make the profession more attractive: “You don’t want to just sit there doing data entry all day long. You want to learn how to advise businesses.”

Seibert recommends firms start small when implementing automated bookkeeping. “Pick one client in your firm and see what you can achieve,” Seibert challenges. Choose a simple, digital-native business like consultants, SaaS companies, or agencies with predictable electronic expenses. Build confidence, then expand to complex cases.

Building Trust Through Transparency

With financial data flowing through AI systems, security is crucial. Digits addresses this with architecture developed at Seibert’s previous companies, where they handled crash data from billions of smartphones.

Everything stays within Digits’ systems; they don’t send raw data to OpenAI or other third parties. All data is encrypted at rest using per-object envelope encryption, where each object has its own encryption key. Even if breached, stealing one key wouldn’t compromise the system.

The platform is SOC 2 Type 2 certified, with complete audit trails showing who changed what and when. You can even grant granular access, like giving your marketing manager visibility into only marketing expenses. “They can see marketing, all the transactions booked to marketing, and nothing else,” Seibert explains.

Importantly, when AI does the work, you can trace exactly what happened. Click on any transaction to see the activity log. This solves the common problem of clients making changes in QuickBooks without anyone knowing.

The Competitive Reality Check

Seibert’s warning deserves repeating: “No one’s going to be outcompeted by the AI itself. You are going to be outcompeted by firms that really adopt this aggressively.”

This isn’t hypothetical. Firms using advanced automation already serve more clients with similar-size teams, offer competitive pricing while maintaining margins, and provide real-time insights that clients increasingly expect.

You don’t have to become a tech expert. Set aside time each month after the close to try new tools. Watch YouTube videos about AI agents (though Oliver warns to avoid the hype channels). Most importantly, maintain healthy skepticism. As Seibert notes about AI doing math, “If it’s not 100% correct, what’s the point?”

Remember, AI agents are like clever interns. They’re eager, overconfident, and need supervision. They excel at tedious, repetitive tasks but need human judgment for nuanced decisions. The goal isn’t to replace accountants but to eliminate the work accountants wish they didn’t have to do.

Taking the First Step

Thoughtfully evaluate how these innovations can augment your practice. Start with one simple client. See what 96.5% automation actually feels like. Build confidence, then expand gradually.

Listen to the full episode to hear Seibert’s complete vision and practical guidance on everything from selecting pilot clients to restructuring pricing models. The tools to eliminate tedium while amplifying expertise aren’t coming; they’re here, proven, and improving rapidly. How quickly and thoughtfully can you integrate it?

Your Team Actually Wants You Less Involved in Daily Operations—Here’s How to Give Them What They Need

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For an accounting firm owner, days can feel like an endless stream of Slack notifications and “quick questions” from your team. You’ve become your company’s “internal Wikipedia”—the go-to source for every operational decision, client question, and process clarification. Sound familiar?

Chase Damiano, founder of Human at Scale and recent guest on the Earmark Podcast, has a name for this trap: the bottleneck.

Damiano brings a unique perspective to the accounting world. After scaling Commonwealth Joe Coffee Roasters from zero to $5 million in revenue and earning a spot on Forbes’ 30 Under 30 list in 2018, he experienced burnout so severe it drove him to take a 12-week sabbatical that included two weeks of silent meditation. This radical reset transformed his understanding of leadership and delegation. Now, he shares those insights with accounting firm leaders trapped in similar operational quicksand.

In his conversation with host Blake Oliver on the Earmark Podcast, Damiano challenges a fundamental assumption plaguing firm owners: the belief that hiring more people will solve their capacity problems. The reality is far more complex. Breaking free requires a systematic approach to delegation that transforms how you communicate expectations and how you measure success.

Every overwhelmed firm owner needs to understand three critical transformations. First, why the traits that make you successful—perfectionism and desire to serve—become the quicksand that traps you. Second, how a six-part delegation framework frees you from daily firefighting. And third, why building a “team responsibility inventory” provides the roadmap for extracting yourself from workflows while actually increasing your team’s autonomy.

The Psychology of Being Stuck: Why Good Intentions Create Bad Systems

Before you can implement systematic delegation, you need to recognize that the very traits that made you successful now hold your firm hostage.

Damiano knows this pattern intimately. After scaling his coffee company to $5 million in revenue, he found himself addicted to the productivity habit. It took three full weeks of his sabbatical just to stop compulsively “figuring things out.”

“Even the act of ‘figuring out your life’ can now look more like a job,” he explained to Oliver. “Wake up, have breakfast, go to a coffee shop to figure things out. Then it’s time for lunch, more figuring out, dinner—and suddenly another day has vanished.”

This addiction to busyness hits accounting firm owners particularly hard. Your perfectionism, your genuine desire to serve clients, and your technical expertise aren’t character flaws. They’re the foundation of your professional success. But when it comes to scaling a firm, they become quicksand.

Oliver admits he fell into this exact trap with his own firm. “I said yes to everything,” he reflected during the conversation, “and then I’ve got too much to do and I’m busy all the time, working 60 hour weeks.”

The desire to help everyone feels noble in the moment. But it creates a system where your brain becomes the firm’s operating system. Every decision, every quality check, every client question routes through you.

The perfectionism problem runs deeper than just workload. Oliver shared an example from his time at a Big Four firm. The nonprofit team was performing full compilation engagements for clients who didn’t need them. “Most of these nonprofits did not need compilations, but we were doing it anyway with a huge added cost,” he observed. The team could have delivered a simpler service at better margins while still meeting client needs.

Damiano challenges firm owners to examine their “inner data”—not financial metrics, but the intuitive signals about energy and alignment. When he asks bottlenecked CEOs how they feel day-to-day, the answer is always the same: “incredibly draining,” “incredibly stressed,” “I don’t want to do this.”

Yet the pattern continues. They know they’re stuck, they can articulate the problem, but they take no action to change it.

This paralysis stems from a fundamental identity crisis. As Damiano discovered after exiting his coffee company, entrepreneurs often don’t know who they are without their business. “Everyone asked me what I’m going to get into next.” he recalled. “People assume you’re going to go on to an even greater thing, but you might not be clear about that internally, and that’s okay.”

The reality check comes when you realize your team actually wants you less involved. Teams see your pain from being overwhelmed. But more importantly, they experience frustration when you inject yourself into processes and “muck things up,” as Damiano puts it.

Your team craves autonomy over their roles. They want to make decisions without running everything by you. But first, you need to accept that your five-minute solution might be worth sacrificing for their two-hour learning experience.

Damiano’s perspective on one-on-ones captures the mindset shift required: “Your one-on-ones should not be about status updates. It’s an opportunity to develop them as leaders in every role, in every position. They should do 80 plus percent of the talking.”

Understanding these psychological barriers is crucial, but awareness alone won’t free you from the trap. You need a concrete system for transferring responsibilities that addresses both your need for quality and your team’s need for clarity.

The Six-Part Delegation Framework: From Chaos to Clarity

The breakthrough moment in Oliver and Damiano’s conversation came when Oliver realized effective delegation to humans uses the exact same structure as prompt engineering for AI.

“What you just described is a well-written prompt,” Oliver exclaimed as Damiano outlined his delegation system. “It’s the same thing.”

This revelation transforms delegation from an art into a science. The framework emerged from Damiano’s observation of countless delegation failures. One particularly instructive disaster involved a chief operating officer who attempted to delegate a billing process. She wrote just seven words on a piece of paper: “Manage billing process while I’m out on vacation.”

The predictable result? Complete failure. Without context, success criteria, or clear boundaries, the delegation was doomed from the start.

During the podcast, Damiano and Oliver worked through a real example: delegating the management of weekly team meetings. Here’s how the framework transformed this common bottleneck into a clear, delegatable responsibility:

1. Name the responsibility: “Manage and coordinate weekly team sync.” Just two to three sentences that start with action verbs.

2. Define the purpose: As Oliver articulated: “Our weekly team sync is what keeps everyone organized and makes sure nothing falls through the cracks. It helps us prioritize.” Damiano added, “This is our command center for what is happening for the week, but also a place for us to come together as a culture.”

3. Establish success metrics: “Everybody leaves the meeting with their top three to five priorities clearly defined. We’ve addressed any blockers,” Oliver said. Plus the binary metric: Did the meeting happen? Did everyone who could attend actually attend?

4. Document the process: They mapped out everything from sending meeting invites and creating agendas to collecting topics, facilitating discussions, and updating the practice management system.

5. Identify resources: Access to calendars, ability to run reports on upcoming deadlines, time for preparation and follow-up. “In a prompt that would be the tools,” Oliver noted.

6. Clarify decisions: The operations manager can choose meeting times and create agendas autonomously, but needs approval to cancel meetings two weeks in a row.

The elegance of this system lies in its flexibility. “Those first three are perfect delegation opportunities for a more senior individual,” Damiano explains. Junior team members benefit from all six elements as guardrails.

What makes this framework powerful is how it addresses trust issues that sabotage most delegation attempts. When delegation fails using this structure, you can pinpoint exactly what went wrong.

“You can literally look at it and pinpoint exactly where,” Damiano says. “And that is what makes the delegation stick, because you can just fix that one issue.”

The framework also flips the traditional delegation dynamic. Instead of the owner having to document everything, team members can use these six elements as a guide to ask better questions. This transforms delegation from a top-down directive into a collaborative process.

Oliver’s enthusiasm was immediate: “I’m going to start using this. I’m going to do this tomorrow with my team.”

The framework addresses his core challenge: getting his team to take ownership without constantly coming to him for decisions. By clearly defining decision boundaries upfront, team members gain confidence to act autonomously while knowing exactly when to escalate.

But individual delegation is just the beginning. True transformation requires examining every responsibility across the entire firm.

Building Your Delegation Roadmap: The Path to Strategic Leadership

Moving from technician to strategic architect demands a systematic inventory and redistribution of all responsibilities across your firm.

Damiano calls this process building a “Team Responsibility Inventory.” As Oliver discovered with his own 16-person company, you can reach a point where founders are still doing work from when the company was half its size.

“We’re the bottleneck,” he admitted, recognizing how he and his partner had become “functionally critical participants in the workflow” even though they now had a team capable of handling that work.

The Team Responsibility Inventory begins with radical transparency. Every team member completes a seven-day time audit, brain-dumping every task and responsibility they handle. No organization needed, just raw data.

Then comes the revolutionary part: a facilitated session to compile all these responsibilities and review them line by line as a company. For many firms, this marks the first time the team sees exactly what’s on the CEO’s plate.

“Imagine you’re going line by line through these responsibilities and as a team making a decision,” Damiano explains. “Should the CEO still have this responsibility?”

The power of this collective review can’t be overstated. Team members who’ve been frustrated by their CEO’s constant intervention suddenly understand the impossible workload their leader carries. More importantly, they become active participants in solving the problem.

Each responsibility faces one of six possible destinies: hire someone, delegate and train internally, outsource to a service provider, automate through software, consciously eliminate, or keep.

The elimination option deserves special attention. “This is an underused one,” Damiano emphasizes. After years of growth, firms accumulate zombie tasks—reports nobody reads, processes that served a purpose five years ago.

Oliver shared the perfect example: “There’s all these people running weekly, monthly, quarterly reports that were defined five years ago that they’ve been sending out constantly and nobody’s actually reading them.”

The delegation roadmap shows how responsibilities shifts over time. But successful execution requires developing your team’s decision-making capabilities, not just their technical skills.

This is where Damiano’s “Problem-Outcome-Solution Framework” comes in. Instead of bringing problems to leadership, team members learn to present complete proposals. Define the problem and its cost. Articulate the desired outcome. Recommend a solution with clear resource requirements.

Oliver’s current challenge illustrates why this matters: “My team comes to me with a problem and then I have to use my brain space to think about the solution. But it’d be much better if they defined the problem, defined the outcome they want, and gave me a proposed solution.”

This shift transforms every interaction from a drain on the CEO’s cognitive resources into a development opportunity for the team member.

The framework works because it addresses a fundamental misunderstanding about delegation. Firm owners often justify keeping tasks because “I could do this in five minutes. Why delegate something that takes them two hours?”

But this calculation ignores the compound effect. That two-hour learning investment today becomes 90 minutes next week, then 60 minutes, then eventually faster than you could do it yourself—all while freeing you to focus on strategic work only you can do.

Oliver’s ultimate success story proves what’s possible. After five years building his firm with these principles, he achieved the dream: “I was doing no sales, I was doing no client work. We were getting customers. They were getting served. They were happy, they were paying. Money was coming into the bank and I was not involved.”

For anyone trapped in 60-hour weeks, Oliver’s enthusiasm is infectious: “I will tell you that it is the greatest thing in the world to get into that position, because then you’re really just an owner of a business.”

From Bottleneck to Breakthrough: Your Next Strategic Move

The journey from bottleneck to strategic leader is about fundamentally reimagining how knowledge and decision-making flow through your organization.

Damiano’s framework reveals that delegation isn’t a single skill but a system. It requires clear communication, defined success metrics, and the courage to accept “good enough” from others. The same perfectionism that built your reputation can become the cage that limits your growth.

This transformation extends beyond individual firms to the entire accounting profession’s evolution. As AI handles increasingly complex technical work, the firms that thrive will be those where owners have already extracted themselves from technical execution. They’ll focus on strategy, relationships, and innovation instead.

What makes Human at Scale different is, “We don’t just come in as a consultant or advisor or coach,” Damiano explains. “We actually come in and join your team. We are in there, actually running these systems and building that with you.”

Listen to the full conversation between Oliver and Damiano on the Earmark Podcast to discover additional frameworks and tools. Visit Human at Scale to take their operational leadership assessment that can diagnose your firm’s specific bottlenecks.

Stop Pricing the Deliverable and Start Pricing the Relationship

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Marie Greene once spent more than 20 hours on a client she was charging just $12. But she only realized how little she was charging for her time when her firm started tracking time. While extreme, Greene’s story highlights a problem that plagues accounting firms everywhere: chronic underpricing that leaves practitioners exhausted and struggling to grow.

In this episode of the Earmark Podcast, recorded live in Los Angeles during the Advisory Amplified tour, host Blake Oliver explores the pricing puzzle with Greene, a CPA and founder and CEO of Connected Accounting, and Ryan Embree, Director of Partnerships at Ignition. Together, they tackle one of the profession’s toughest challenges: how to charge what you’re worth without losing clients.

The Time-Tracking Wake-Up Call

Greene’s journey to better pricing started with tears of frustration. “I literally cried, but I didn’t know it was so bad. My pricing was so bad until we started tracking time,” she admits. Even though Connected Accounting had always used fixed fees instead of hourly billing, they had no real grasp on whether their pricing made sense.

The problem got worse when Greene hired her first team member. She’d been pricing based on how quickly she could complete tasks, not realizing she was “super mega efficient” compared to most people. “When it takes someone a normal amount of time, I was destroying my budgets and I couldn’t delegate fast enough. And then I was just buried in work,” she explains.

This pattern isn’t unique to Greene’s firm. Embree sees it repeated across hundreds of firms he works with at Ignition. The problem often hides in compliance services, where firms fall into the trap of charging “the same as last year.”

“If you quoted someone X amount of dollars seven years ago and they’re still paying that fee, that is the biggest opportunity,” Embree points out. Many firms hesitated to raise prices during COVID when clients were struggling. But as Embree notes, “price increases are normal. They’re a part of business.”

Eventually, Greene’s managers staged an intervention. They took over pricing and told her to stop selling certain services at unsustainable rates. Six years later, the firm has a much more realistic pricing model. But it all started with that uncomfortable first step of tracking where time actually goes.

Pricing the Whole Relationship, Not Just the Deliverable

The real breakthrough came when Greene realized she was charging two clients the same amount for identical services, but one required far more time and attention than the other.

“You can’t just price the deliverable, which is a P&L at the end of each month,” Greene discovered. “You have to also price the number of touchpoints. You have to price how often they have ad hoc random questions that are not part of the scope.”

Connected Accounting now looks at multiple factors when setting prices:

  • Number of bank accounts (17 credit cards vs. one checking account makes a difference)
  • Transaction volume (one account with 1,000 transactions can be more work than multiple quiet accounts)
  • Number of bills and invoices processed monthly
  • Meeting frequency (weekly touchpoints vs. monthly check-ins)
  • Communication style and expectations

This approach also creates natural price escalators. “We’ve always been very clear up front that we grow with you,” Greene explains. “As you add employees, as you add bank accounts, as your transaction volume increases, our fees increase.”

Embree adds that this reframing helps clients understand price changes. “They know they’re growing. They know they’ve exceeded scope. So they know they’re just kind of leveling up to a new level of service.”

Beyond pricing existing services correctly, firms often miss revenue by not telling clients about everything they offer. Greene discovered this after creating a comprehensive list of which clients used which services. “I was like, oh, we only have six accrual clients, or we only have three that use X.”

This led to casual conversations during client meetings. “We’d say, hey, by the way, we notice you do this. Who does your payroll?” Greene recalls. “We’re not saying we sell payroll and you should buy it, but it was just planting a seed.” Often, clients would respond enthusiastically, not even knowing Connected Accounting offered that service.

Having the Conversation: A Live Repricing Role-Play

During the discussion, Greene demonstrated her approach to repricing conversations in a role-play with Embree acting as the client. She showed how her strategy turns a potentially awkward discussion into a collaborative planning session.

Greene starts with enthusiasm, not numbers: “Hey, Ryan, how excited are you about next year? What are you looking forward to doing with the business?”

When Embree shares his growth plans, she follows with genuine concern: “And with the growth, what are some of the things that keep you up at night?”

Only after understanding his challenges does she pivot to solutions: “Would you be interested if we can find a way to help you lower some of your costs by not having to hire one more admin, and we can take on some of the grunt work?”

The conversation naturally flows into discussing additional services like benefits renewal and talent retention strategies—services Embree’s character didn’t even know Connected Accounting offered.

After these discovery conversations, Greene presents three-tier proposals. “I was no longer trying to force a single price. I showed three and then they could choose. And that was the relief,” she explains. This approach gives clients control while removing the pressure of “selling” a single option.

Despite common fears, clients rarely leave over price increases. Embree observes, “A lot of firms that want to cut clients think raising fees is the way to go. And the short answer is no, they actually still stick around.”

In fact, the worst clients often prove surprisingly price-insensitive. “Whatever the fee is, you can’t actually price them out,” Embree notes.

Technology makes these conversations easier. Connected Accounting now automates annual increases using opt-out language in engagement letters. “Every year in December, we send a notice saying, hey, you have 30 days to cancel your services. But just so you know, effective January 1, all pricing across the firm is going up 3%,” Greene explains.

This mirrors how services like Amazon Prime handle increases: making them expected rather than exceptional. As Oliver points out, “That fee just goes up every year. And we get the email and we look at it and we accept it.”

Your Pricing Transformation Starts Now

Greene’s journey from charging $12 for 20-plus hours of work to running a profitable firm with systematic pricing shows that transformation is possible, even if it takes time. The lessons are: track your time to understand true costs, price the entire client relationship rather than just deliverables, and reframe price discussions around growth and value.

The fear of losing clients to price increases is largely unfounded. When one client left Connected Accounting for a competitor offering a deal, they returned after 12 months and started paying the competitor’s higher rate, which Greene then maintained. “The market often values accounting expertise far more than practitioners themselves realize,” she discovered.

Greene admits she still gets nervous before pricing calls. But she’s learned that authenticity matters more than perfection. “They see how excited I get. They know I’m a huge nerd, I love technology, I love accounting,” she says. “Eventually, they’re like, okay, cool. She sounds like fun to work with.”

Embree emphasizes that positioning yourself as an expert dramatically increases what clients will pay. “People’s willingness to pay is infinite for that piece of mind,” he notes. “To know that you have an expert in your corner that has done this with other clients and knows everything about you and your business.”

The profession’s chronic underpricing doesn’t just hurt firm owners; it limits the entire industry’s ability to innovate and serve clients well. When accounting professionals charge appropriately, they can invest in better tools, training, and talent.

Ready to stop leaving money on the table? Start by tracking where your time really goes. Then look at your client list and identify who’s grown beyond their current service tier. Finally, practice having value-focused conversations that celebrate client success rather than apologizing for price increases.

The full episode includes the complete repricing role-play, detailed pricing metrics, and specific strategies you can implement this week. Because as Greene’s story proves, the biggest barrier to profitable pricing isn’t your clients’ willingness to pay. It’s your own reluctance to ask.

The Real Cost of Being Everyone’s Favorite Boss

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Madeline Reeves thought she’d hit rock bottom when she found herself face-down in a parking lot. She was wrong. That was before her million-dollar agency lost half its revenue in 30 days while she scrambled to save a monthly payroll costing anywhere from $88,000 to $102,000.

Meanwhile, Lynnette Oss Connell had engineered what she calls “a life of overfunctioning”—using technology and systems to layer on more and more responsibility instead of freeing up her time. When Oss Connell told her assistant she planned to add overnight Thursday shifts to handle overflow work, she expected pushback. Instead, her assistant asked how she could support the plan. That’s when Oss Connell realized, “Nobody’s coming to rescue me.”

In this episode of the Earmark Podcast, recorded at the Advisory Amplified Tour in Seattle, host Blake Oliver sits down with these two leaders who rebuilt their careers after burnout. Reeves, founder of Fearless Foundry and host of the Finding Fearless podcast, and Oss Connell, a CPA turned burnout prevention coach and founder of Burnout Bestie, share raw stories about what happens when professional success comes at the cost of personal destruction.

The Accounting Burnout Trap

The accounting profession doesn’t just attract service-oriented people. It rewards behaviors that lead to burnout. During one marketing event Reeves attended, personality testing matched attendees with unique drinks based on their personality types. The result? Out of 100 accountants, 97 received the same drink.

“This profession attracts a certain type of person,” Reeves observed. “For most accountants, their primary love language is acts of service. You live to serve. And that’s why I love accounting professionals.”

But that service mentality became destructive during the pandemic. Reeves led two firm communities during that period—one for female firm founders and another for advisory firms. For two years, she held space for leaders to “just cry privately together on Zoom because they were holding it together for their families and their staff.”

These professionals delayed their own compensation to maintain cash flow. They were filing PPP loans, figuring out EIDL requirements, and watching clients’ businesses collapse, all while absorbing the emotional and financial aftershocks.

“We went back to conferences and nobody was talking about what happened,” Reeves noted. “Doing that work for your clients was incredible, but it has a real impact on people.”

When Rock Bottom Has a Basement

Both Reeves and Oss Connell discovered that what feels like rock bottom often isn’t. “We all think we know what the burnout bottom feels like,” Reeves explained. “And then you’re like, oh wait, it can go even deeper.”

For Oss Connell, 15 years of building and rebuilding her CAS practice meant multiple burnout cycles. She had all the right support systems: a nanny, her mother as backup for her children, workflow software, and backup systems for clients.

“I had all the things you’re supposed to have,” she reflected. “But I didn’t put solutions in place that freed me up. I put solutions in place so that I could just layer more on.”

Her rainbow-blocked calendar, once a source of pride, actually represented something darker. “I was where the buck stopped and started, both at work and at home,” she explained. Even though work sometimes felt like a respite from personal stress, she wasn’t setting any real boundaries.

Reeves’s journey from that parking lot to losing half her revenue revealed similar patterns. As a service-oriented leader who loved building teams and culture, she initially got energy from mentoring her growing team. But soon she was coaching 12 employees while simultaneously mentoring all their clients, with two young children at home, a new marriage, and a recent move during the pandemic.

When four major clients, each worth over $100,000, canceled within 30 days through no fault of her team’s work, she scrambled to save everyone. She closed a $100,000 funding round in 30 days to save payroll. “That money was gone within a couple of months,” she admitted. “I was in the red for anyone who’s doing that math.”

The Three Warning Signs You Can’t Ignore

According to Oss Connell, burnout shows up in three distinct ways that serve as critical warnings.

First is emotional exhaustion. This can manifest in various ways, as seen with accountants, teachers, and healthcare workers during the pandemic.

Second is cynicism. It’s “that feeling of being jaded, the feeling that something you love doing, you now no longer find joy in. That is a big red flag,” Oss Connell says.

Third is a lack of accomplishment. You feel like “you’re on a hamster wheel, and no matter what you’re doing, you’re not getting ahead,” Oss Connell explains.

“Burnout isn’t the end of something,” she emphasizes. “It’s an indicator that you need to adjust something to be your most successful self.”

But recognizing these symptoms intellectually is different from acknowledging them emotionally. Both Reeves and Oss Connell waited for someone else to give them permission to stop.

“I was very conditioned, as I think most women are, to be a people pleaser,” Reeves admitted. She lived off the feedback of being told she did a good job, taking on clients from very large accounting firms despite values misalignment, because they represented good money and validation.

Oss Connell’s breaking point came when nobody challenged her plan to work overnight. “I desperately wanted somebody to intervene and say, ‘Hey, you’re doing too much.’ And nobody did.”

Rebuilding on Your Own Terms

Recovery required dismantling old structures and rebuilding with new boundaries. For Reeves, the first step was radical. “I stopped trying to be so likable.”

She audited every client in the firm’s history, dividing them into two categories: “love them or hate them.” Using this data, she analyzed patterns across services, timelines, and engagement types. This informed a complete overhaul of their service offerings.

“We redid our brand strategy, which clarified our ideal client. And that quickly kicked some people off the menu,” she explained. They productized all services, implemented annual repricing, and built documented processes so no single person was “the glue.”

“If I went on vacation for a week or two, people need to know how to onboard clients,” Reeves said. “If I’m the only person who can tell you how to do those things, that’s not very scalable.”

The firm now operates by a simple mantra: “Life is too short to work with people and projects you hate, so don’t do it.”

For Oss Connell, the solution involved honest conversations with her husband about their different visions for their co-owned firm. He wanted to grow and scale; she wanted to keep it lifestyle-oriented and small. They ultimately decided to sell the firm so neither had to compromise their vision.

These changes weren’t overnight. “It took us well over a year or two,” Reeves said, “but we stacked them one on top of the other and they unlocked.”

Community as Life Support

Strategic changes created the framework, but emotional support proved equally critical. Reeves and Oss Connell emphasize that isolation accelerates burnout.

“We need to have smaller spaces where we can talk candidly about what we’re going through,” Reeves said. This means being vulnerable—not in a performative way, but simply admitting “this is a part that I’m still working on” or “this part I haven’t figured out yet.”

The challenge is that many professional communities create pressure to present a polished image. “We’re all like A-plus students around here,” Reeves observed. “That pressure to show up and just show your shiny, polished ‘I have it figured out’ self is really high.”

But community requires effort to find. “Nobody’s going to come and be like, join our community, you really need this,” Reeves emphasized. “A lot of people who are like, ‘Well, I’m all alone.’ And I’m like, but are you seeking it?”

For Oss Connell, losing her entire support system during divorce while building her firm was devastating. “When I was struggling with my personal life and my firm, I had no support system, and I did not go out and search for it. That is probably the number one problem when I look back.”

Being in a community helps clarify identity. “I can see other people have these skills, and then I begin to see who I am better because I see who you are,” Oss Connell explained.

This extends to leadership transparency. Reeves now openly expresses stress to her team, clarifying, “This is not about you, this is just me getting it out of my body.” She’s learned to show anger or disappointment directly rather than always being the “nice boss.”

Oliver confirmed this approach works. “I talk to my employees when I feel stressed out, and it’s okay. You don’t have to be the perfect boss who has it all figured out. They really appreciate it when I’m honest.”

Breaking the Cycle for Good

The path forward requires accepting that sustainable success doesn’t require self-destruction. As Oss Connell frames it, burnout is an indication that you need to change something,” and that adjustment is ongoing. “As life moves on, your firm evolves. Society evolves. Your clients evolve. You’re going to need to continually recalibrate.”

The accounting profession faces a choice: continue celebrating martyrdom or recognize that sustainable success requires energized, not exhausted, practitioners. The pandemic showed us the incredible resilience of accounting professionals and the devastating personal cost of that resilience.

“When we set good examples of reducing stress for the organization, we equip our employees to be more sustainable as well,” Oss Connell noted. It’s about creating firms where everyone can thrive.

Listen to this episode to hear the full stories from Reeves and Oss Connell. Whether you’re experiencing warning signs or rebuilding from your own rock bottom, the conversation provides validation that you’re not alone and strategies for creating a practice that doesn’t require your destruction to achieve success.