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Saying No Is the Ultimate Power Move for Women in Accounting

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Years ago, Nancy McClelland sent a text to Questian Telka that would eventually birth the She Counts podcast. “What if our default wasn’t saying yes?” she asked. As two self-proclaimed yes-aholics who regularly got themselves “into a lot of trouble with how much we say yes,” Nancy wondered what life would look like if they flipped the script entirely, making “no” their default and forcing themselves to justify every yes.

That text conversation planted a seed that grew into episode 14 of She Counts, where Nancy and Questian sat down with Brandy Jordan, a self-proclaimed “Jane of all trades” who’s made a name for herself as Catalyst at Woodard and Concept Alchemist at High Rock Accounting. Brandy knows something about saying no that most of us desperately need to learn.

When “New Scenery With the Same Inbox” Becomes Your Vacation

“For years, vacations were just new scenery with the same inbox for me,” Brandy admits during the conversation. She’d work through every trip, checking emails poolside, taking calls from the beach. No one demanded she stay online. It was her own inner superhero insisting she needed to be available.

The kicker? She was coaching other professionals about boundaries while burning her own to the ground. “The irony was painful,” she says.

Sound familiar? If you’re nodding along, you’re in good company. Nancy hasn’t taken a vacation without her laptop since before the pandemic. Questian can’t remember the last time she took a full weekend off. When she recently took her kids to the pool on a rare day off, she remembers thinking, “Wow, this is a nice feeling. Like I’m not actually working.”

This is the reality for women in accounting, where the pressure to prove your worth through constant availability feels like oxygen: invisible but essential for survival. As Brandy explains from years of coaching high performers, “These are bright, capable people driving themselves into the ground because saying no felt like career limiting or a personal flaw.”

Your Yes Reflex Is Actually Killing Your Career

Here’s the brutal honesty Brandy drops early in the conversation: “Every time you say yes, you’re saying no to something else whether you mean to or not.”

For women in accounting, the pressure runs deeper than just workplace expectations. The industry rewards responsiveness and that service-oriented mindset. It sounds great until you realize you’ve become the default note-taker in every meeting, the organizer of office birthday cards, and the coordinator of team events, all while maintaining your full workload.

“These smaller yeses create patterns of taking on all the extra things that need to be done,” Questian observes. Meanwhile, colleagues who don’t say yes to all the extra stuff actually get their work done while you’re in what Brandy calls “that constant state of feeling like you have to catch up.”

Nancy confesses she literally remembers the last time she felt caught up: 19 years ago, sitting on her front porch at age 34, choosing between the beach and yoga. “I’ve spent the past 19 years trying to get back to that moment.”

Part of the problem is what behavioral economists call the planning fallacy. As Brandy explains, we tend to underestimate how long tasks actually take, even when experience proves us wrong repeatedly. Questian nails it: “I recognize that it takes me about twice as long as I think something’s going to take me, but I still don’t want to acknowledge it.”

We’re not just miscalculating time; we’re completely ignoring mental bandwidth. Some tasks drain us more than others, yet we schedule them back-to-back as if our brains are machines. As a result, we keep telling ourselves we’ll figure it out or catch up next week. But as Nancy points out, being an adult has become “saying I’ll catch up next week, every week for the rest of your life.”

The Revolutionary Difference Between Saying No and Starting With No

“Starting with no is not about being negative or difficult,” Brandy clarifies. “It is about installing a new operating system for your decisions.”

Drawing from Daniel Kahneman’s book, Thinking Fast and Slow, Brandy explains how our reflexive yes belongs to System 1, the quick, emotional, people-pleasing response. Starting with no forces System 2 thinking, where you actually ask whether you can afford the cognitive load, the hours, and the context switching this demands.

Think about budgeting money, Brandy suggests. “If you constantly spend first and figure it out later, you always feel behind and stretched. But if you start each month at zero and consciously decide exactly how to allocate your funds, you’re going to feel empowered and in control.”

The same applies to your time and energy. But you need concrete criteria. Brandy’s approach is to write out five personal values that align with everything you do. Then identify your top three or four career goals. Every request gets filtered through the question, “Can I do this without compromising my other priorities?”

“I’m writing that down,” Nancy said. It’s the question that changes everything because suddenly you’re not asking “Can I squeeze this in?” but “What am I willing to sacrifice?”

How to Actually Say No (Without Feeling Like a Jerk)

“Don’t start saying no to the biggest thing that comes your way,” Brandy advises. “Start small because you have to get comfortable with saying no.”

Her practical framework:

  • Use clear yet empathetic language: “Thank you for considering me, but I cannot take this on right now”
  • Offer alternatives when possible, such as suggesting a colleague who might benefit or be better aligned
  • Give yourself time by saying, “Let me review my workload and get back to you tomorrow”

That pause is crucial. “It gives you space to thoughtfully assess the request without the stress of an immediate reaction,” Brandy explains. “Your fear will diminish because now you’ve thought it through logically.”

Questian admits the pause is her biggest challenge. She recalls immediately wanting to volunteer for a speaking opportunity, even reaching out to Nancy when a colleague declined it. Nancy’s response? “No, I’m going to protect you from yourself here.”

The shift changes how you think about no entirely. “Stop thinking that saying no is inherently selfish or inflexible,” Brandy insists. “By thoughtfully evaluating your commitments, you respect your own capacity and your team’s capacity and ability to rely on you fully when you do commit.”

The Day Brandy Told Herself No

The hardest no Brandy ever said wasn’t to a boss or client; it was to herself. After years of preaching boundaries while working through every vacation, she finally drew the line. The laptop stayed home. Not in the hotel room, not in the bag. “I knew if it was in my bag, I wouldn’t leave it be.”

Notifications went off and she warned her team, “I will be unreachable. Carry on. Don’t break anything.”

The hardest part was silencing that voice insisting something might implode. “It never does,” Brandy reflects. “There’s nothing life-threatening in our line of work that would need anything right away.”

The payoff was immediate: real rest, a fresh perspective, and the end of that hypocritical guilt. Now everyone at work knows, when Brandy’s on vacation, she’s unreachable. Period.

Nancy’s taking her first laptop-free vacation since pre-pandemic after hearing this. She’s even built in buffer days before and after. Her new philosophy? “If this all burns down while I’m gone, then that wasn’t the business I wanted to be running anyway.”

Why Your Team Secretly Wants You to Say No

“Modeling is essential,” Brandy emphasizes. When leaders protect their bandwidth, they demonstrate that focus is a competitive advantage, that thoughtful prioritization—not endless accommodation—delivers excellence.

Nancy discovered this when she vulnerably told her executive assistant, “I need you to help me. I’m not good at this.” She even offered a raise if her assistant could help her survive through July. “That took a lot of vulnerability and it was a little embarrassing,” Nancy admits. “But they’ve really been stepping up for me.”

Something magical happens when you actually disconnect. “It’s amazing what they can figure out when you’re not around,” Brandy observes. Those urgent emails? Already solved. Your team becomes highly self-sufficient when given the space.

The transformation extends beyond individual teams. As Questian discovered, “When I take a vacation and really put everything away, I am so much more efficient. My efficiency level increases substantially.”

Brandy puts it bluntly: “Self-abandonment is unsustainable leadership.”

Your Challenge: One No, Two Weeks

The path forward isn’t complex, but it requires courage. As Brandy says, you need to practice because “anything new is work” at first, but it becomes a habit when you consistently ask, “Does this align with what I want to do?”

Nancy and Questian are committing to trying this approach. Will you? Choose one request in the next two weeks and apply Brandy’s framework. Pause. Evaluate against your priorities. Ask, “Can I do this without compromising my other commitments?”

If the answer is no, practice saying, “Thank you for considering me, but I cannot take this on right now.”

Then head to the She Counts LinkedIn page and share your experience. Because you’re not alone in this struggle, and you shouldn’t have to figure it out by yourself.

As poet Nayyirah Waheed writes, “I don’t say yes because I’m strong. I say no because I am.”

The accounting profession needs leaders who model sustainable excellence, not martyrdom. That transformation starts with two letters: N-O.

Ready to dive deeper? Listen to the full episode above where Nancy, Questian, and Brandy explore every nuance of moving from exhausted accommodation to strategic leadership.

When Professional Jealousy Strengthens Friendships: She Counts Season 2 Kicks Off with Raw Honesty

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“How did she get invited to this? And I didn’t get invited. I’ve been in the industry for over 20 years. Why is she more popular than I am?”

Nancy McClelland’s text to her podcast co-host Questian Telka wasn’t meant to be public. But standing before a live audience at Bridging the Gap conference in Denver, Nancy chose to share this raw moment of professional jealousy. In doing so, she showed exactly why She Counts has struck such a nerve with women in accounting.

This special Season 2 kickoff episode marks a full-circle moment. Nancy and Questian met at Bridging the Gap exactly one year ago, and that meeting sparked their friendship and Nancy’s role as a founding member of Ask a CPA. Now they’re back, recording live with guest moderator Erin Pohan of Upkeeping, LLC, who runs the Women in Accounting Visionaries and Entrepreneurs (WAVE) Conference.

The Hidden Work Behind “Real Talk”

Before sharing this vulnerability, the hosts pulled back the curtain on what it takes to create She Counts. “Mad props to anybody out there who does a podcast. It is so much work,” Nancy admitted, even though Earmark handles production. “I was delusional because Earmark is an amazing podcast production company. And I was like, ‘oh, they’re going to do all the hard work.’”

The reality hit hard. Each episode requires hours of planning, rehearsing, and outlining. It’s “like writing a session to present at Bridging the Gap,” Nancy explained. Then there’s finding sponsors (which Nancy calls “so much work”), plus the constant pressure of social media and marketing. “We feel behind all the time. Literally all the time,” she said, seeing nods from other podcasters in the audience.

So why continue? Questian has an idea: “We’re doing it for all of you and all of ourselves, of course, because this is something that we wanted and we didn’t have.”

The payoff came in unexpected ways. While Questian treasures the hour they spend recording together, Nancy was floored by listener responses. “I did not expect so many people to be coming up and saying, when you said this one thing… it made me feel less alone.”

When Your Best Friend’s Success Triggers Your Insecurities

The conversation turned deeply personal when Erin asked about putting themselves out there publicly. Nancy’s response made the room go quiet.

“I remember the first time you went to Scottsdale,” Nancy said to Questian, her voice shaking. “And I texted you, and I was like, how did you get invited to this and I didn’t get invited.” The hurt went deeper than professional disappointment. “How does she know all the cool kids? I don’t know the cool kids. The cool kids think I’m a nerd.”

These feelings connect to old wounds. Nancy mentioned being “beat up in the locker room” and feeling like everyone was against her in high school. But instead of letting jealousy fester, she took it to therapy.

Her therapist’s response changed everything: “Nancy, do you want what she has?” When Nancy said yes, the therapist explained, “So that’s what envy is. Emotions aren’t inherently positive or negative. It is just a fact to say, I wanted to be invited to Scottsdale. How is that a bad thing?”

The breakthrough came when Nancy texted Questian directly. “I said, hey, what’s this Scottsdale thing? How come I didn’t get invited? Did you not invite me?” Questian’s response dissolved the tension. It was her first invitation, she’d been nervous, and she hadn’t even known what she was being invited to.

“Saying out loud to her, I have envy. It changed everything,” Nancy reflected. “Jealousy doesn’t have to turn into resentment.”

Questian admitted her own jealousy, particularly watching Nancy effortlessly secure sponsorships. “I’m like, how did you do that? Of course I’m jealous.” But she channels it differently: “I just watch her and I’m like, I want to be able to do that.”

Everyone Has “Imposter Syndrome,” Which Means No One’s an Imposter

When Questian mentioned she “suffers” from imposter syndrome, Nancy pounced: “Is it a disease? Are you the only person who has this horrible disease?”

She asked the live audience who experiences imposter syndrome. Nearly every hand went up—the same result Questian got at her Scaling New Heights panel. Nancy’s point was sharp: “If literally everyone in this room raised their hand, then is this a syndrome that we have? Or are these just imposter feelings? The way we feel jealous sometimes, the way we feel happy sometimes?”

Her conclusion: “Nobody needs to be medicated for something that literally everyone in the entire universe has. The weirdos who don’t feel imposter syndrome are the ones who should be medicated for not having any self-awareness whatsoever.”

Both hosts revealed ongoing insecurities that seem absurd given their achievements. Nancy, at 53, regularly speaking on major stages and running successful ventures, confessed: “I am constantly terrified that people will think I’m a rookie. I’m still convinced that I am 17 years old, and this is the first time I’ve ever done anything.”

Questian’s insecurity centers on credentials. “I’m not a CPA. I don’t have my CPA license,” she admitted. People question her expertise: “Oh, so you’re not an accountant? And I’m like, no, I’m an accountant. Like, I know my shit, but I haven’t gotten my license yet.”

The morning of the recording, she received a text about North Carolina potentially removing the master’s degree requirement for CPA licensure. Her colleague’s message: “Go get it, girl.”

Creating Ripple Effects Through Vulnerability

The power of shared struggles became clear through specific stories. Nancy described a friend who recently suffered her second stroke. “She said, driving back and forth to her doctor’s appointments, she listens to She Counts and she feels less alone.”

Erin’s story shows how one genuine interaction can spark movements. Last year at Bridging the Gap, she knew no one. But Nancy “turned her entire body toward me, looked me in the eye with genuine curiosity and said, ‘I want to know you too.’” That interaction inspired Erin to create the WAVE Conference, with the next one scheduled for May 15, 2026.

Body image struggles surfaced when asked directly. Questian, despite being thin, faced childhood bullying about being “anorexic” and having “giant bug eyes.” More disturbing: “I can think of three times where a man in a superior position to me has made comments about my body at work.”

Nancy shared how she helped her friend Brittany Brown overcome fear about keynoting at a major conference because of her weight. “The people who are in that room are not there to judge you,” Nancy told her. “They’re going because they see who’s speaking before they go. They see the name. They see the picture. If they don’t want to be there, they just won’t be there.”

The gratitude comes full circle. After Aileen Gilpin posted about how She Counts made her feel less alone, Nancy found herself drawing strength from that message during her mother’s nursing home transition. “She’s thanking us for doing what we’re doing. But the note she wrote totally changed my week.”

The Permission to Be Human

Nancy shared her biggest fear about the podcast: “I’m terrified that people will listen to this and they’ll be like, who does Nancy think she is? Just grabbing that mic again?” She knows some see her as “too much,” “intimidating,” or “attention seeking.”

“I’ve been in therapy for it because it is hard,” she admitted. But she’s clear about why she continues to show up and speak up. “I needed this when I was younger. I need it today. I need to feel like I’m not alone, and I don’t want anybody else to feel alone.”

Her mantra, from Marianne Williamson, guides her: “When we let our light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same.”

For anyone in the early stages of starting their own practice, Nancy offers this truth: “Nobody got a rule book. It’s not just you who are making it up as you go along. We are literally all making up what running a practice looks like, we are making up what being an adult looks like.”

Questian’s advice is simpler but equally powerful: “Trust your gut. Always.”

The episode closes with Randy’s updated wisdom from his father: “You can do anything that you set your positive mind to.” But as this conversation proves, a positive mind isn’t one without doubts, jealousy, or fear. It’s one that shares these feelings openly and transforms them into connection.


Listen to the full episode of the She Counts podcast, follow She Counts Podcast’s LinkedIn page, and share underneath this episode what you feel women in accounting most need to hear. But through this raw, unscripted hour, the hosts already provided the answer: Women need to hear that their struggles are normal, their feelings are valid, and they’re not alone.

The Real Reason Your Female Colleagues Keep Disappearing from Leadership

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You’re watching your female colleagues disappear. One by one, the talented women who started their accounting careers alongside you vanish from the partnership track. When you look around the conference table at senior leadership meetings, you realize that although women make up half of all new hires, only 19% of firm partners are women.

In a recent episode of the She Counts podcast, “Still Under Glass,” hosts Questian Telka and Nancy McClelland tackle this leadership crisis head-on. But they’re not just naming the problem. They’re offering examples and solutions and calling on firm leaders to make fundamental cultural shifts.

The Pipeline Problem That Isn’t

Something dramatic happens between new CPAs entering the profession and reaching partnership, and it’s not a lack of talent.

Unfortunately, this problem isn’t unique to accounting. Across business sectors, women hold only 14% of executive roles. But accounting starts with gender parity, making the difference even more stark. “We know that we have 50% as women, and we know they’re talented,” Telka emphasizes. “The issue is that the profession is losing women mid-career, not because they aren’t capable, but because the system really isn’t designed for us to stay.”

Making the Invisible Visible

Telka shares that a male colleague recently told her he wants to help create positive change but doesn’t understand the issues or how to help. To eliminate that excuse, we need to spell out exactly what’s happening and what allies can do about it.

The biases start small but compound quickly. Studies show men interrupt women 2.5 times more often than women interrupt men. Women are routinely asked to take notes in meetings or organize office celebrations, rather than men. They receive vague feedback like, “you’re doing great, keep it up,” while men more often get specific, actionable guidance tied to promotions.

McClelland adds, “Women of color have a much harder time. There are many different kinds of privilege.” These biases get disguised with phrases like “she’s just not quite the right fit,” a convenient way to mask discrimination that’s hard to pinpoint.

However, recognizing bias is just the first step. Three critical barriers keep women under glass: the motherhood penalty, the flexibility trap, and the sponsorship gap.

The Motherhood Penalty: Same Event, Opposite Outcomes

The data is jaw-dropping. Mothers are considered 12% less committed to their jobs than non-mothers, while fathers are seen as 5% more committed than non-fathers. This perception gap translates directly into salary differences. Mothers receive starting salaries 7.9% lower than childless women and 8.6% lower than fathers.

“The exact same life event, becoming a parent, becomes either a career accelerator or a career killer depending solely on your gender,” the hosts note.

Telka shares a story about her ex-husband taking their son to a playground. When his brother asked how he felt about “babysitting” while the women went shopping, he immediately corrected him: “I’m not babysitting. This is my child.”

That single word—babysitting—captures everything. When fathers care for their children, they’re going above and beyond. When mothers do it, it’s just expected. Worse, it’s considered evidence that they’re not serious about their jobs.

This bias affects daily decisions that slowly strangle women’s careers. Women get passed over for major accounts based on assumptions about their availability. “They’re thinking: you’re a mom, you don’t want to have a larger account,” Telka explains. Instead of asking what support women need to keep advancing, firms quietly write them off.

The Flexibility Trap: Benefits That Destroy Careers

Many firms advertise flexible schedules and family-friendly policies. But there’s a massive gap between having these policies and creating a culture where women can use them without killing their career trajectory.

“Don’t say you’re going to give unlimited vacation or flexible schedules and then expect your employees not to use it,” Telka warns. “Real flexibility isn’t just a policy; it’s putting it in practice.”

McClelland shares an infuriating story that shows this trap in action. A lawyer friend, raising two children alone while her daughter faced serious health issues, negotiated a 25% pay cut for more flexibility. Despite maintaining her full workload and delivering the same results while working more from home, that pay cut became permanent. Future raises were calculated from her reduced salary, compounding the penalty year after year.

Meanwhile, another friend’s male boss responded completely differently to her caregiving needs. “You participate and contribute more than anybody here. I know you’ll get the work done. Take whatever time you need.”

Same situation. Completely different outcomes.

The flexibility trap extends to hiring practices. Most larger firms refuse to consider part-time senior-level roles, demanding 60-plus-hour workweeks as the baseline for showing commitment. “We could hire more women who are highly competent, highly skilled,” Telka argues. She left her position partly because there was no opportunity to work part-time while caring for her son.

The hosts challenge the entire premise of equating hours with value. “The bragging should be, ‘’I’m still hugely successful, and I’ve only had to work ten hours this week because I’m so efficient,’'” Telka suggests. Instead, the profession celebrates whoever logs the most hours, regardless of actual accomplishments.

The Sponsorship Gap: Beyond Coffee and Advice

While firms love their mentorship programs, women need sponsorship, and there’s a crucial difference. Mentors give advice. Sponsors give opportunities.

“Women need advocates who promote them even when they’re not in the room,” Telka explains. This means giving them the opportunity to work with big clients, putting them forward for promotions, and actively using influence on their behalf.

The “feedback gap” shows how this plays out. Telka noticed that men at her firm received specific, actionable feedback: complete these certifications, lead this type of project, and you’ll be ready for promotion. Women got vague encouragement that sounded supportive but functioned as a career ceiling.

McClelland’s experience breaking into professional speaking illustrates the power of sponsorship. She had no idea what to charge and accepted far less than market rates. When Telka learned what McClelland was charging, her response was direct: “You need to charge a lot more.” That single conversation of transparent peer mentorship immediately increased McClelland’s earning potential. But sponsorship is that next step: vouching for her quality of work to professional connections who were ready to pay market rates.

Because women need more than peer support. They need people—espectially men—in leadership roles actively using their privilege for change. This means interrupting when women themselves are interrupted, questioning why Jennifer’s client portfolio is smaller than John’s, and advocating for women who aren’t in the room.

“Don’t wait for women to ask for a promotion,” McClelland urges. Women are far less likely to self-advocate, since they have been socialized to be “nice and kind and warm” rather than assertive. “Intentionally promote women. Just because they’re not asking doesn’t mean they’re not qualified or don’t deserve it.”

From Awareness to Action

The good news? Change is already happening. Jason Ackerman’s firm has achieved 80% women employees with equal gender representation in leadership. Some firms tie partner bonuses to diversity outcomes. A male partner who took paternity leave shifted his entire firm’s culture simply by modeling the behavior.

The solutions are practical and achievable:

  • Track account assignments to ensure equity
  • Stop asking for prior salaries that perpetuate pay gaps
  • Provide bias interruption training for everyone
  • Create revenue-sharing models that reward value over hours
  • Hire skilled women seeking part-time or flexible roles
  • Make pay ranges transparent within organizations
  • Model the behavior you want to see

Companies like Luma Accounting have incorporated policies like these into their firm culture with such successful results that they started the Women+Workplaces community to connect talented women seeking flexible work with firms smart enough to recognize that 30 brilliant hours beat 60 mediocre ones.

“Culture is created based on what we celebrate and what we reinforce,” Telka notes. The profession rewards visibility and hours logged… but it should be rewarding impact, innovation, and results.

The Business Case for Breaking the Glass

When firms lose half their talent pipeline to preventable cultural barriers, they lose experienced professionals who could transform their practices. Women who navigate personal challenges often become more adaptable, empathetic leaders.

“My personal family struggles have made me a much more resilient individual and a more compassionate person and leader,” Telka shares. McClelland agrees, noting that her medical challenges made her more understanding and better able to support her team.

Telka shared a quote from Michelle Obama, “Strong men, men who are truly role models, don’t need to put down women to make themselves feel powerful. People who are truly strong lift others up. People who are truly powerful bring others together.”

The leadership gap in accounting won’t close on its own. But with awareness, commitment, and intentional action from everyone—not just women—the profession can finally move beyond keeping women under glass.

Whether you’re running a firm or just starting your career, you have the power to be part of this shift. Listen to the full episode for more insights, strategies, and an honest conversation about creating real change in accounting.

The hosts also invite you to join the conversation on the She Counts LinkedIn page by sharing your own stories of workplace bias and solutions that work. Recognizing the glass ceiling is just the first step. Breaking it requires all of us.

The Business Case for Leading with Heart in a Numbers-Driven World

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Dawn Brolin’s accounting firm partners told her she was fat. They criticized her for wearing the same clothes repeatedly. And when she tore her meniscus at the gym, they made her drive herself to the hospital with explicit instructions to be at work the next morning.

This wasn’t a scene from a workplace horror story. This was real life for a CPA who would later become one of accounting’s most passionate advocates for empathetic leadership. In a recent episode of the She Counts podcast, Brolin opened up to hosts Nancy McClelland and Questian Telka about the raw experiences she shares in her new book, “The Elevation of Empathy,” revealing how toxic leadership nearly broke her, and ultimately shaped her understanding of what authentic leadership looks like.

What makes Brolin’s story particularly powerful is that she doesn’t just talk about being a victim of empathy-free leadership. She also admits to her own failures and how she learned to recover from them. Her journey shows embracing empathy as a strategic advantage, rather than hiding emotional intelligence to appear “tough enough,” creates stronger teams and better business outcomes.

Before we dive deeper, if this topic triggers any emotions or struggles you’re facing, there is help available. The Crisis Text Line offers confidential professional mental health assistance: just text HOME to 741741.

When Leadership Lacks Heart: The Partnership from Hell

Brolin’s partnership nightmare wasn’t just about bad bosses. It was a masterclass in how the absence of empathy destroys people and businesses from the inside out.

At the time, Brolin was one of three partners in the firm. She brought in most of the clients, and was working to support her young family as the primary breadwinner. She was genuinely excited about building something meaningful. Then reality hit.

“There was zero empathy in that firm,” Brolin recalls. “None whatsoever.”

Because Brolin wasn’t yet a CPA, her partners—both women—relegated her to answering phones and fetching lunch, despite her being the primary rainmaker. The real cruelty went deeper than professional dismissal. They systematically attacked her personally, criticizing her weight and mocking her clothing choices.

The gym incident is an image of empathy-free leadership: when Brolin tore her meniscus during a step aerobics class they’d all attended together, she found herself writhing in pain on the gym floor. Her partners’ response? Figure it out yourself.

“I somehow dragged myself down to the office, and now I need to get to the hospital,” Brolin remembers. “And they were like, ‘All right, well, you’re gonna have to drive yourself to the hospital and make sure you’re at work tomorrow morning.'”

With a torn meniscus.

This wasn’t leadership, it was systematic dehumanization. The partners were creating a culture where employees watched this treatment and learned that success meant crushing others. “I watched how they treated the employees,” Brolin explains. “It wasn’t just me.”

But Brolin made a crucial decision in that toxic environment. Instead of absorbing these behaviors as normal, she used the experience as a reverse blueprint. “I was never going to do that as an employer,” she realized.

When the Empathy Champion Falls Short: Brolin’s Coaching Confession

Here’s what makes Brolin’s story so honest and powerful: she advocates for empathy and admits when she’s failed at it herself.

As a softball coach known as “The Designated Motivator,” Brolin poured her soul into her players. She made it her mission to be inclusive, to make every kid feel appreciated and loved. Then three players transferred to another school.

“My empathy went out the window,” Brolin admits. “I was devastated that they left. I poured my soul into them, and I was like, ‘You’re leaving me.’”

Instead of considering why these kids might have needed to transfer, Brolin took it personally. She withdrew her care and support from them completely. “That was so wrong,” she reflects.

But here’s the beautiful part: Brolin recognized her mistake and fixed it. About a year later, she went to each of the three kids and apologized.

“I want you to know something. This is an epic fail on my part, not yours,” she told them. She gave them permission not to forgive her, making it clear the apology was about them, not about making herself feel better.

They forgave her. Now they text regularly.

“My point in saying that is, for those people who have been unempathetic to an individual, you can fix that,” Brolin explains. “You can go to a person, and admit you messed up.”

In short, empathy isn’t about being perfect. It’s about recognizing your failures, owning them, and doing better.

Empathy as Your Secret Business Weapon

The accounting profession has operated under a fundamental misunderstanding: that empathy equals weakness. Brolin’s experiences prove exactly the opposite.

“Empathy doesn’t mean you’re soft,” Brolin emphasizes. “As a matter of fact, I think it’s a superpower.”

The American Psychological Association defines empathy as understanding a person from their frame of reference rather than your own. This breaks down into two skills: cognitive empathy (logically understanding someone’s perspective) and emotional empathy (actually feeling what they feel).

In business terms, this translates to measurable advantages that accounting firms can’t ignore. The research is overwhelming: empathetic leaders drive stronger team performance, higher retention rates, sharper decision-making, increased innovation, and improved mental health across their organizations.

“When leaders have empathy, people gravitate to that leader more than they do to a leader who doesn’t have empathy,” Brolin explains.

Consider Brad Smith, former CEO of Intuit, who Brolin cites as one of her favorite leaders. At industry conferences, Smith would stop mid-stride when he saw familiar faces, remembering personal details about employees’ families and asking about their daughters’ college plans.

“That is a leader who has empathy, who cares about other people by his actions more than his words,” Brolin notes. “They don’t superficially care about you because it’s going to give them an advantage. They care about you because of you.”

Being appointed to a leadership position doesn’t automatically make someone a leader. True leadership requires the ability to connect with and understand the people you’re leading. When your employees trust that you see them as whole humans rather than just billable resources, they bring their full creative potential to work.

The Burden Women Carry (And Why Men Need to Step Up Too)

Women in accounting firms often carry the invisible emotional labor of our workplaces. According to a 2023 Deloitte report, 51% of women say they’re expected to manage team wellbeing, compared to only 27% of men.

Telka knows this intimately. “I think about things like birthday gifts for colleagues or cards that have to be signed or someone’s ill and they need to be sent flowers,” she explains. “It often fell on me, probably because I was the most empathetic. The men were never the ones who were driving those situations.”

McClelland captures this perfectly with her favorite greeting card: “The front of the card says, ‘Happy birthday, from us.’ Inside: ‘But I think you know who went out and bought the card and wrote it and addressed it—and who just put the stamp on it.’”

But Brolin believes many men in the industry are more empathetic than we realize. “They’re just not being intentional about it,” she says. Take Randy Crabtree, who wrote the foreword to Brolin’s book, or Mike Paine, who told Telka, “I really want to help women in the field. Help me understand what the problem is and tell me what I can do, then I’m here for it.”

“And that’s empathy,” McClelland points out. “That is empathy right there.”

Learning to Accept What You Give: The Hardest Lesson

For Brolin, one of the biggest challenges has been learning to accept empathy, not just give it.

“People think because I keep going, I don’t hurt,” Brolin shares. “Let me be very clear. I hurt, and I keep going.”

Women leaders often become so focused on caring for others that they struggle to let others care for them. When Kellie Parks called after reading Brolin’s vulnerable Mother’s Day post, Brolin’s instinct was to deflect and hang up quickly.

Instead, she made a conscious choice to receive Parks’ empathy. “I let myself listen to what Kellie had to say and gave some space in my soul.”

McClelland offered Brolin a reframe that many women leaders need to hear: “Would you want me to hide my pain to protect you?” When Brolin said of course not, McClelland continued, “It’s an honor to have you turn to me when you need help. So if you ask for help, you’re showing us the same respect.”

As McClelland puts it, the goal is “unconditional love, but conditional involvement”—staying open to authentic connection while maintaining boundaries about what treatment you’ll accept.

Practical Tools for Building Your Empathy Muscle

Brolin offers specific practices for developing empathy as a leadership skill:

  • Practice mindfulness to build awareness. When you talk to someone, be truly present in that conversation. This is especially challenging at conferences with distractions everywhere, but it’s worth the effort.
  • Ask questions without making assumptions. Go into conversations with a blank slate rather than preconceived notions about what someone will say. As Telka notes, “Most of the time if I don’t make assumptions, things turn out much more positively.”
  • Pay attention to nonverbal cues. What are people not saying out-loud that you should consider asking about?
  • Ask for feedback. Be vulnerable enough to say, “This scenario happened with this client. What could we have done differently? Was it something I should have done that I didn’t do?”

Remember, as Brolin’s softball story shows, empathy can be learned and relearned. You can unlearn behaviors that hurt others. Most people aren’t out to hurt others. They’ve just learned harmful patterns that they can change.

Your Empathy Is Revolutionary

Brolin’s journey from victim of empathy-free leadership to champion of emotional intelligence demonstrates that our profession’s future depends on leaders who understand that strength and compassion are partners in creating sustainable success.

Empathetic leadership drives measurable results through higher retention, stronger teams, sharper decision-making, and improved mental health. In an industry grappling with talent shortages and burnout, leaders who can authentically connect with their teams while driving results are essential for survival.

Women in accounting must reject false choices. You don’t have to choose between empathy and strength, between caring and competence. Your emotional intelligence is your competitive advantage.

As Audre Lorde reminds us, “Caring for others doesn’t make you weak. It makes you dangerous to systems built on indifference.”

Ready to hear Brolin’s complete journey and discover more tools for empathetic leadership? Listen to the full She Counts episode to learn how to turn your emotional intelligence into your greatest professional asset. The future of accounting depends on leaders brave enough to lead with both their heads and their hearts, and you’re uniquely positioned to show the way.

This Forbes Top 200 CPA Says Sponsors Matter More Than Mentors

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Picture this: You’re sitting across from a potential client—an older gentleman who seems kind and polite. Your expertise fills the room, your credentials speak for themselves, but throughout the entire meeting, he keeps calling you “darling.” Not your name. Just “darling.”

This experience happened to Nicole Davis, founder of Conscious Accounting (formerly Butler Davis) and a Forbes Top 200 CPA. For Davis, who’s originally from Georgia, where terms like “honey” and “sweetheart” are common, it wasn’t about being offended. It was about something deeper.

“Since we’re in a professional setting, I’m like, ‘you need to call me by my name,’” Davis explains. “When some men see a pretty face or just women in general, they kind of tend to sidestep our expertise.”

Sound familiar? If you’ve worked in accounting, tax, or bookkeeping for any length of time, you’ve probably been there. That moment when your face is seen, but your capabilities somehow become invisible. It’s why a recent episode of the She Counts podcast bears the title “Don’t Call Me Darling,” and why Nicole’s response to these moments is a masterclass in redefining professional power.

When Power Looks Different Than Expected

Davis’s journey to commanding respect didn’t happen overnight. Despite her current reputation for dominating whatever room she enters, she admits something that might surprise you: “I am highly introverted. People think I’m not because I can turn on. But as quickly as I turn it on, I can turn it off.”

Early in her corporate career, Davis bought into traditional definitions of power. “Early in my career when I worked in corporate America, I thought power meant title, power meant that corner office, power meant I’m calling the shots and I’m telling people what to do.”

But when she started her own firm, that facade crumbled. What emerged was something far more powerful. “Real power isn’t in a title. Real power isn’t in how much money you have. Real power is when you own who you are, and you make everyone else also accept that person.”

The catalyst for this shift? Representation. Davis’s boss at the Federal Home Loan Bank, Michelle, was the first Black woman she’d ever worked for. “When I started working for her, my eyes started to open. I started to see myself like a boss, but I didn’t see the path to get there as a Black woman, because all I saw was white men.”

This speaks to something we don’t talk about enough in our profession. When you don’t see people who look like you in positions of power, it’s hard to imagine yourself there. As co-host Nancy McClelland admits, “When I hear the word ‘doctor,’ I presume it’s a white male. Now, that is just absolutely ridiculous. It’s these deep-seated institutional societal biases we all have.”

For Davis, seeing Michelle changed everything. It showed her there was a path and more importantly, she could define what that path looked like.

Redefining What Domination Really Means

When Davis talks about “dominating” spaces, she’s not talking about aggression or making others small. “Dominating means agency. It means I am calling the shots. I’m writing my own tickets, I’m making the rules. I am doing things my way.”

But here’s the part that gave podcast co-host McClelland chills: “Dominating is not about making men small, right? Dominating is about making the space honest enough for all of us to fit into it.”

This isn’t about rejecting collaboration or building walls. It’s about what Davis calls “owning your story so completely that the room moves to your rhythm. I’m not moving to theirs.”

Learning to do this required Davis to develop boundaries that she calls “non-negotiables.” “I set boundaries and I set them fast with people,” she says. The key is being “warm but firm.”

As Davis explains, “People think you have to walk into a room and be the loudest person there to show you’re significant. No, you don’t. You walk into a room and you’re just there. Your presence says way more than words you could ever speak or say.”

This kind of presence requires something many women in accounting struggle with: refusing to shrink ourselves to make others comfortable. But when you do it right, something magical happens. Davis describes authenticity as working “a lot like Wi-Fi” because “people in range of you being who you are get that signal and they log into theirs.”

In other words, when you show up authentically, you give others permission to do the same.

Technology: The Great Equalizer

One area where Davis sees a massive opportunity for women is technology, specifically AI. Her philosophy? “Buddy up with the bots.”

“AI is making a grand stand in our profession, and so many people still have not latched on to it yet,” Davis observes. But here’s where women have an advantage. “Women have mastered efficiency out of necessity. Women are perfectly positioned to make a big major splash in the tech industry.”

Davis describes AI as acting like “a tireless junior associate” that “never needs to take a vacation. They never get tired. They can do all the things you really don’t want to do from an administrative standpoint, possibly from an analytical standpoint.”

This is about layering technology with relationship-building, and it’s something women excel at.

This approach has allowed Davis to build her firm primarily through relationships rather than traditional sales tactics. “I built my firm strictly on relationships,” she says. “I just kept taking care of my current clients and adding more services to what they needed.”

The result? A practice designed around her values rather than traditional expectations, what she calls achieving true freedom through strategic use of technology.

The Power of Sponsorship vs. Mentorship

While many people focus on finding mentors, Davis believes sponsorship is more critical. “Mentors guide, but sponsors vouch.” This concept was a key inspiration to co-host Questian Telka in her initial creation of the She Counts podcast.

Davis’ own story illustrates this perfectly. In 2020, Jeff Drew from the AICPA reached out about the practitioners planning committee. “I had no idea this committee existed,” Davis admits. But Drew’s sponsorship opened doors she didn’t know were there, eventually leading to her current role as committee chair.

“Sponsors rewrite the guest list for you so your name is on it,” Davis explains. “And when you’re on the list, your mentors help you stay on the list and guide you as you go through your journey.”

This distinction matters because it shows sometimes the biggest barrier isn’t our capability; it’s visibility. Sponsors help solve that problem by putting your name in rooms where decisions are made.

From Spaces Not Built for Us

When asked about spaces traditionally dominated by men, Davis counters, “What space was ever built for me?”

It’s a powerful question that reframes the entire conversation. Rather than trying to fit into existing structures, Davis has consistently created her own path, from starting her accounting firm to launching a construction company.

“Who said women can’t wear heels and then put on some steel-toed boots in the same week?” she asks with characteristic wit.

This mindset shift, from asking for permission to creating opportunities, separates true leaders from those still waiting for someone else to open doors.

Getting Out of Your Own Head

Davis’s advice for women wanting to take up more space is, “Take it. I know we haven’t touched on this a lot, but stamp out imposter syndrome. You’re not an imposter.”

Her approach involves speaking life into your goals. “Say it out-loud. Say it to yourself in the mirror. Say, ‘I am a badass speaker. I am an exceptional accountant. I know how to do this, this, and this.’ Even if you don’t know how to do it, say it anyway. Because eventually your mind is going to start believing it, and eventually your actions start following what your mind believes.”

It’s about recognizing that you’ve already proven yourself. “You wouldn’t have gotten this far without knowing anything. You know something. Use that to level you up.”

The Ripple Effect

Davis’s journey from being called “darling” to being recognized as a Forbes Top 200 CPA represents something bigger than individual success: cultural transformation.

When women refuse to shrink themselves, when they set boundaries while maintaining warmth, when they leverage technology to create more inclusive practices, they create ripple effects that extend far beyond their immediate sphere.

As Davis puts it, authenticity becomes “a permission slip” for everyone around you. Refusing to apologize for taking up space permits others to do the same.

In the accounting profession, technology is challenging traditional power structures and changing client expectations. There’s a new generation of professionals who refuse to accept “that’s how it’s always been done” as an answer.

Women like Davis are leading this transformation, not by playing by the old rules, but by writing new ones. They prove you don’t need to adopt masculine models of authority to command respect, and you don’t need to diminish others to demonstrate your strength.

Every boundary you set, every authentic moment you choose over conformity, every time you refuse to make yourself small, you give the next generation permission to thrive.

Because the world needs more women who understand that true domination isn’t about making others small. It’s about being so genuinely powerful that everyone around you gets permission to thrive.

Ready to transform how you show up in your professional spaces? Listen to the full She Counts episode to hear more of Davis’s insights and discover specific strategies you can implement immediately.