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She Counts

Your Shoulder Isn’t Distracting Anyone, But Worrying About It Hurts Your Performance

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In 2018, EY told 30 of its female executives “women’s brains absorb information like pancakes soak up syrup, so it’s hard for them to focus.” Men’s brains, apparently, are more like waffles—better at focusing because information “collects in each little waffle square.”

This was a half-day professional development workshop called “Power, Presence and Purpose” that happened just seven years ago.

When an article about this training resurfaced in a WhatsApp group of accounting professionals, it sparked exactly the conversation the profession needs to have. Nancy McClelland and Questian Telka, hosts of She Counts, the real-talk podcast for women in accounting, dove into this issue in their latest episode, unpacking where these expectations come from and what they really cost women professionally.

When Your Body Becomes Everyone Else’s Business

The message starts early and never really stops. Women’s bodies are problems to be managed, and managing male reactions is somehow their responsibility.

“I was told I couldn’t wear spaghetti strap tank tops to school because it would be too distracting for the boys,” Questian recalls of her middle school days.

That expectation followed her straight into adulthood. Her mother, trying to prepare her for professional success, advised, “In a man’s world, you have to learn to cover your body and cut your hair and make yourself blend in with male colleagues. Think pantsuits, and not the colorful, fun kind.”

The EY training took this messaging to new extremes. The 55-page presentation included a score sheet where participants rated themselves on “masculine” versus “feminine” traits. According to the training, masculine meant “acts like a leader,” “athletic,” “aggressive,” and “independent.” Feminine traits included “eager to soothe hurt feelings,” “shy,” “understanding,” “loves children,” and “cheerful.”

“So this makes sense,” Nancy says with pointed sarcasm. “Men don’t love children, and they’re not understanding. And women don’t act like leaders, and they’re not independent.”

But the advice went far beyond stereotypes. Women were told not to “flaunt their bodies” because “sexuality scrambles the brain.” They were instructed to “speak briefly because they often ramble and miss the point.” Most jaw-dropping of all was the advice not to directly confront male colleagues in meetings and to avoid sitting directly across from them, as it might make the men feel threatened.

“If that was required, I would be fired immediately,” Questian laughs. “I’m not going to last very long.”

“For the men listening, you’re not responsible for how women dress,” Nancy says, cutting to the heart of it. “You’re responsible for your behavior and your professionalism.”

The Hidden Tax on Women’s Brains

This constant self-monitoring is exhausting and actively undermines performance. Questian points to objectification theory, developed by researchers Fredrickson and Roberts, which shows that when women constantly monitor their appearance, it creates self-objectification.

“A 2020 review of that research found that this constant body monitoring actually reduces your cognitive performance,” she explains.

Nancy knows this firsthand. At a recent conference, wearing a black-and-gray sweater dress instead of her usual colorful attire, she found herself worrying, “People are going to be like, ‘What’s up, Nancy? ‘” How come you’re not colorful today?’

The irony wasn’t lost on her. After years of worrying about standing out too much, she was now anxious about blending in. Either way, that mental energy was stolen from the work itself.

“When I feel like my insides and outsides line up, I stop the constant self-objectification,” Nancy explains. “My brain focuses on doing the work instead of being busy watching itself.”

The research backs this up. McKinsey’s 2023 Women in the Workplace report and Catalyst’s work on emotional tax show that women—especially women of color—must maintain constant vigilance at work, scanning for bias and managing others’ reactions. That’s energy they can’t use for actual leadership.

The double bind makes it worse. “It’s this impossible tightrope of looking good, but not too good at work,” Questian says. “Don’t be too much, but don’t be too little.”

The problem persists today. At a recent conference, Questian learned that men were standing around discussing a female colleague’s clothing and body. The woman was, by any standard, appropriately dressed.

“What I found disturbing was the standing around discussing a woman and her attire and her body,” Questian says. “It’s a responsibility to behave and be professional, regardless of what she was doing or how she was dressing. Just don’t engage in those conversations.”

Finding Your Way Back to Yourself

Both hosts have wrestled with these pressures personally, though they’re quick to acknowledge the privilege that comes with running their own firms.

Nancy’s transformation is striking. For over a decade, she wore almost exclusively black, gray, brown, and white. As someone who regularly spoke to C-suite executives and boards, she wanted to be taken seriously.

Then a friend noticed the disconnect. “You’re one of the most colorful personalities that I know, and your exterior doesn’t match your interior,” she said, giving Nancy a colorful necklace.

“I was so scared the first time I wore that necklace,” Nancy admits. “Because I was like, oh, everybody’s gonna notice me. And I wanted to be noticed for my accomplishments.”

But when Nancy started dressing more authentically, her clients in Chicago’s quirky Logan Square neighborhood, where she runs a hyperlocal firm, actually trusted her more.

“Wearing a traditional black suit said ‘professional in an office.’ It didn’t say ‘You get me,'” she explains.

Questian takes a different approach, embracing how she wants to dress regardless of others’ opinions. “Some people will like me for it. Some people will not like me for it. And if it’s not appropriate, maybe that’s not the space I’m meant to be in.”

She’s pushed boundaries her entire career. Fifteen years ago at a Big Four firm where pantyhose were required in the dress code, she simply never wore them. She was never disciplined. The rule existed more to police than to serve any real purpose.

“For us to be able to say, ‘I’m doing this, and I feel comfortable’, it’s a little unfair,” Nancy acknowledges, recognizing that many women face real consequences for dress code violations.

Rewriting the Rules

The solution requires individual choices and systemic change. For women navigating these waters, the hosts offer three essential questions:

  • Can I move in it? Is it comfortable and functional for your workday?
  • Will I be thinking about it during the day? Will it create mental distraction?
  • Does it feel like me? Does it align with who you are?

Questian adds deeper considerations, like what makes you feel confident? How do you want to show up as a leader? What environments make you feel seen and safe?

Here’s what firm leaders can do better:

  • Involve employees in creating policies through genuine collaboration, not top-down mandates.
  • Shift from appearance to function. What does the work require? Are there safety needs? What are client expectations?
  • Redefine professionalism around respect, results, and competence, not clothing choices.

Nancy shares a perfect example of functional requirements. “I was working on a client project that turned out to be in the middle of a rail yard, and I was walking across this rail yard in a business suit with a skirt and high heels. That is a safety issue.”

For male colleagues who want to be allies, the ask is simple but powerful. When the conversation shifts to a woman’s appearance, redirect it. “Let’s stay focused on her work” or “She’s an excellent leader” doesn’t have to be dramatic. It just has to happen.

“If this woman heard the conversation you were having,” Questian asks, “would it be a conversation you would be proud of?”

The Real Bottom Line

EY paid a $100,000 fine and created a half-million-dollar scholarship fund for women and underrepresented minorities after their training came to light. But an independent review two years later showed things hadn’t improved much. Policy changes without culture change aren’t enough.

“Professionalism should be built around respect and results and competence,” Questian emphasizes, not around policing women’s bodies or managing men’s reactions.

 “The solution is communication,” Nancy says, bringing the conversation home. “Have employees participate in dress code conversations. Create a safe space where people can put their two cents in and build something off of that.”

As the hosts wrap up, they invite listeners to join the conversation on the She Counts Podcast LinkedIn page. What’s the most ridiculous dress code rule you’ve ever been given?

Questian closes with a modified quote from Yves Saint Laurent: “What is most important in your attire is the woman who’s wearing it.”

The mental energy women spend managing their appearance isn’t just unfair; it’s a measurable drain on the talent and leadership the accounting profession desperately needs. When firms finally stop asking women to dress to accommodate others’ discomfort and start defining professionalism by actual professional behavior, everyone wins.

Listen to the full episode above to hear Nancy and Questian’s complete conversation about pancakes, power suits, and why personal autonomy at work shouldn’t be negotiable.

From Frustrated Firm Owner to Tech Founder Without Writing a Single Line of Code

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Thirty-three percent. That’s how much time Judie McCarthy’s bookkeeping firm was spending chasing clients for information instead of doing accounting or advising on business decisions. Just sending requests, following up, and tracking down the same documents week after week.

The breaking point came on a Friday afternoon when one of Judie’s biggest clients called, furious. “The bookkeeper is harassing me for the same information over and over again,” she said, demanding a new bookkeeper. Judie talked her off the ledge that afternoon, promising to investigate Monday morning.

But when she reviewed the email thread with her team, the problem wasn’t the bookkeeper. It was the system, or rather, the lack of one. They were sending emails with multiple questions each week. Clients would respond but never answer everything, starting the cycle all over again.

When Judie called the client back to explain what she’d found, the phone went silent. “I thought, oh, she’s hung up on me,” Judie recalls. “And I realized she was crying.” The client, a high-powered woman running two businesses, wasn’t angry anymore. She was overwhelmed. “It is so hard to keep up with everything,” she said through tears.

That conversation changed everything. This wasn’t a difficult client; it was a horrible client experience and none of the existing tools were solving it.

In this episode of She Counts, hosts Nancy McClelland and Questian Telka sit down with Judie, co-founder of Client Hub, a company that notably doesn’t use titles, reflecting their values of collaboration over hierarchy. After 25 years running a successful bookkeeping practice and a previous career in automotive management, Judie built the practice management software she wished existed. And her experience offers a roadmap for any woman in accounting who’s ever thought, “There has to be a better way.”

The Problem Nobody Wanted to Name

The idea for Client Hub didn’t start with Judie at all. It came from her lead bookkeeper during a regular team meeting.

“We were always trying to be really productive, looking for ways to increase productivity and deliver better client experience,” Judie recalls. “We’re going around the room and my lead bookkeeper said our biggest challenge is getting the information we need from our clients to do the work.”

The statement hit hard. Everyone knew it was true, but hearing it said out loud changed something. Judie’s team decided to measure the problem. Their mini research study revealed that staggering 33% figure. A full third of their time was going to administrative chase-downs rather than actual accounting work.

“There are lots of great internal workflow tools on the market,” Judie explains. “But our internal workflow wasn’t the biggest challenge. It was that external workflow.”

After that crying phone call with her client, they tried to solve it together. The client suggested sending one email for everything. Judie knew that wouldn’t work. They’d just have the same conversation about too many emails. So they created a shared Google Sheet where the client could answer all questions weekly.

“That didn’t last two weeks,” Judie says. “This was when I thought there has to be a better way. And there really weren’t any good tools on the market at that time.”

From Frustrated User to Unlikely Founder

The jump from identifying a problem to building software isn’t obvious, especially for someone without recent coding experience. Judie had been a software developer in the 1980s, but as she jokes, “Code is much different now. We’re working on Windows now, not DOS systems. I couldn’t write code to save my life right now.”

What she did have was connections and a clear understanding of the problem. Through a mutual friend, she met her future business partner, an experienced product manager who wasn’t necessarily looking to build accounting software either.

“We were talking about different software projects,” Judie says. “It just came to fruition that we were really well aligned on this idea.”

For four months, they just talked. Judie created a PowerPoint presentation outlining her vision. They compared notes, did market research with their networks, asking the crucial question: “If we build it, will they buy it?”

“It probably wasn’t until six, seven, eight months in that we said, hey, let’s make this a business,” Judie recalls. “We didn’t have to do it all up front.”

When they were ready to build, fortune smiled again. Her partner found two developers looking for work. Those developers are still with Client Hub today, eight years later. That kind of team stability is almost unheard of in tech startups.

The Hardest Part: Letting Go of What You Built

For two years, Judie juggled both businesses, running her practice while building Client Hub. But eventually, something had to give.

“It finally took me about two years to really wrap my head around the idea of selling my practice,” Judie admits. The hesitation wasn’t just about steady income versus startup uncertainty. “Many of my clients had been with me for over 20 years. A lot of them were almost like family.”

Nancy and Questian immediately understood this tension. When they faced emotional paralysis making decisions about the podcast, Questian told Nancy, “We just have to think like a man.” The comment was partly joking, but it pointed to something real about how women often consider relationship impacts in business decisions.

“As women, because we’re often caretakers, relationships are so important to us,” Judie observes. “A man selling a practice probably wouldn’t think so much about that. They’re like, ‘I’m going to get rid of this practice, take the biggest payout, and go.’”

When Judie finally decided to sell, she approached it with characteristic attention to relationships. The broker’s initial ad copy was “absolutely horrendous—typical accounting, all about the numbers, nothing about what the practice was.” She rewrote it herself to attract tech-forward firms that valued client experience.

The response was overwhelming. She received 20 offers at or above asking price within 24 hours. But after interviewing several candidates, Judie chose the lowest bidder.

“Within ten minutes of the start of that conversation, I knew he was the one,” she says of the Texas firm owner who bought her practice. “Everything about the offer and the transition planning and how he ran his firm, it felt more like a family firm.”

The transition showed just how embedded Client Hub had become in her clients’ workflows. When Judie and the buyer announced the sale together via Zoom, her lead bookkeeper of eight years went quiet, then asked, “I don’t have to give up using Client Hub, do I?”

“I said, we’ve been together eight years and you’re worried about giving up your tech, not losing me?” Judie laughs. One of her clients asked the same question during their meeting.

The Surprisingly Simple Path to Building Something New

For anyone sitting on an idea, Judie offers practical and decidedly non-technical advice.

Write Everything Down Immediately

“I have a whiteboard on my desk,” Judie says. “Whenever something comes to mind, I jot it down because otherwise I’ll forget it in about five minutes.”

Questian laughed in recognition, “As soon as you walk through a doorway, it just goes poof out of my mind.”

Stop Worrying About Idea Theft

“Don’t be afraid that somebody’s going to steal your idea,” Judie emphasizes. “Chances are somebody’s not going to steal it and run. I’ve never heard of that happening.”

Instead, she encourages talking to everyone. “Firm owners reach out to me all the time saying, ‘Hey, I have an idea. Would you mind if I bounce it off you?’”

Launch Before You’re Ready

When Client Hub was approaching release, Judie kept hesitating. “It’s not ready, it’s not ready.”

Then Laura Redmond from Aero Workflow gave her the advice that changed everything: “It will never be ready.”

“Thank you, Laura,” Judie says now. She’s internalized this so deeply that she sometimes pushes her product team to release features before they feel complete. “Let’s let our customers tell us what more it needs instead of us building what we think it needs.”

You Don’t Need What You Think You Need

“People think you need investors and a marketing company to build a software company,” Judie says. “You don’t. It is a big investment because you’re going to be paying developers eventually, but just get started.”

Client Hub has grown organically, without outside funding, staying true to its original vision while evolving from a simple portal to a full practice management solution with internal workflow, file management, and integrations with QuickBooks, Xero, Anchor, and more.

Breaking Through the Real Barriers

When asked about obstacles she faced as a woman entering tech, Judie’s answer surprised even the hosts.

“I never saw barriers in anything I did,” she says. “I never walked into a room full of men and thought, ‘Oh, I’m the only woman here.’ I’m an equal.”

She credits this mindset to her mother, who passed when Judie was just 22. “She was my greatest champion. She always told me there were no limits to what I could do or who I could become.”

This outlook carried Judie through careers in automotive management, bookkeeping, and now technology—all traditionally male-dominated fields. But she’s quick to acknowledge reality. “I know a lot of women do experience barriers. I don’t want people to think I’m saying there aren’t barriers, because there are. You just need to find your way around them, just like a traffic jam.”

The tech ecosystem has been surprisingly welcoming. “I’ve never met any of my male counterparts in this profession that I didn’t feel had respect for me as an equal,” she says. “They want talent. It doesn’t matter if you’re male, female, black, white, Asian, gay, straight. People nowadays, especially in technology, we are just very welcoming.”

Perhaps most importantly, Judie operates from a different fear calculation than most. “I’m the kind of person who is never afraid to try because the thought of regret or what-would-have-been really scares me,” she explains. “I don’t ever want to regret that I did or did not do anything in my life.”

And through it all, she maintains perspective with humor. “I don’t know why I wasn’t voted class clown,” she jokes. “Maybe don’t take yourself so seriously. Roll with it.”

This philosophy extends to Client Hub’s company culture, from their no-titles policy to their biweekly “happy hours” where customers gather informally to network, laugh, and share feedback that shapes product development.

The Legacy of Solving Your Own Problem

Today, Client Hub is more than the simple portal Judie first envisioned. But it stays true to its original mission: helping firms get work done without friction.

“People ask us to implement something like time and billing,” Judie explains. “For us, it was the perfect opportunity to partner with somebody.” They integrated with Anchor rather than building their own billing solution. “We need to keep it simple.”

This focus means saying no to features that don’t serve the core vision, even if they might be profitable. It means listening more than talking, a skill Judie learned in automotive management training decades ago. “The most important communication skill you have is listening.”

When asked what she hopes her presence as a female tech founder represents, Judie’s answer was immediate. “I hope my presence shows the next generation that their passions, ideas, and creativity belong here.”

The message applies to any woman considering a significant professional leap. Don’t let anything or anyone hold you back—not parents, partners, or that one person who says it’s not a great idea.

Your Problem Is Someone Else’s Too

Judie’s story proves that the best solutions come from problems you live with daily. A bookkeeper frustrated by wasted time became a tech founder because she couldn’t ignore the problem anymore.

Listen to the full episode, which Nancy closed with a quote from Rear Admiral Grace Hopper, developer of the first compiler for computer programming: “Humans are allergic to change. They love to say we’ve always done it this way. I try to fight that.”

Women like Judie show us we don’t have to bend ourselves around broken systems. We can build better ones instead.

Sometimes, we have to create the tools we need. So write down that idea, share it with someone, and start before you’re ready.

Join the conversation: Have you ever come up with an idea for a new app? What has prevented you from pursuing it? Or if you have pursued it, share that with us too. Follow the She Counts Podcast LinkedIn page and share your story under this episode.

The Voice That Told You to Stay Quiet Wasn’t Yours

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What if the biggest roadblock in your career path isn’t a lack of skills or experience, but the voice in your head that’s been telling you to stay quiet since you were a little girl?

That voice is familiar to many women in accounting, tax, and bookkeeping. It’s the one that whispers “don’t brag” when you land a major client. It suggests you “soften” your opinion in the board meeting. It convinces you that speaking up will somehow offend someone. Most of us inherited this voice through years of well-meaning feedback that taught us to make ourselves smaller.

In a recent episode of the She Counts podcast, hosts Nancy McClelland and Questian Telka tackle this topic head-on with special guest Misty Megia. Misty is the CEO and creative force behind Theatre of Public Speaking, where she helps women and underrepresented voices unmute themselves, whether in a conference room, a technical breakout session, or a keynote spotlight. Nancy and Questian are proud graduates of her TOPS program and can speak about the transformation from their firsthand experience.

The trio discussed how to reclaim the voices we’ve learned to silence, and it doesn’t involve generic confidence mantras or vague advice to “just think positive.” Real change comes from understanding why our brains cling to negativity in the first place, building specific action plans that outsmart procrastination and fear, surrounding ourselves with people who tell us the truth, and recognizing that self-promotion isn’t ego; it’s service to the people who need exactly what we have to offer.

The Power of Building Your Dream One Step at a Time

Misty opens the episode with a story. While working on a film in Armenia, she asked the director for advice about making a documentary. “I hate documentaries,” the director replied. “And while we’re at it, I’m not a fan of rom coms either.”

The twist? They were literally filming a rom-com at that moment.

The director explained that her real dream was to make a sci-fi film she’d written. But she knew she wasn’t ready. So she made documentaries first to learn how to tell stories and frame scenes. Then she wrote the rom-com they were filming because it was “a massive playground and the stakes were low, but the lessons were high.”

“Watching a woman who fully owned the climb,” Misty reflects. “Not waiting for permission, not waiting to be ready, not apologizing for learning. She was building her dream, one imperfect moment at a time.”

The lesson hit Misty hard. “We often wait to begin until we are an expert. But we need to begin because that’s how we become an expert.”

Understanding What’s Keeping You Muted

Before you can reclaim your voice, you need to understand what silenced it in the first place and why your brain makes it so hard to break free.

When Misty talks about “unmuting,” she’s not just referring to the moment you turn on your microphone in a Zoom call. “There are so many components in our life that are muscles we need to constantly exercise, whether it’s our creativity, how we show up in a space, or how we support one another,” she explains. “To me, that’s the act of unmuting. What do we dream of doing? And what steps do we need to take to move toward that dream?”

Nancy keeps a Post-it note next to her computer (right beside the one reminding her of the cost of goods sold formula) that reads, “Be the best version of yourself you can be. But who is that?” That question is crucial. “It reminds me to make sure it’s my own definition of who I am,” Nancy explains. “It’s easy to get lost and start being who we think the world wants us to be.”

The muting happened gradually for Questian. “When I was really young, I was very, very vocal, very outspoken,” she shares. She beat all the boys in pull-ups in elementary school. She was “born a feminist,” convinced she could do anything. But somewhere along the way, the feedback started coming. “You are bothering other people. You have to say things in a certain way as a woman so you don’t upset someone or offend them.”

By the time she joined Misty’s program, Questian was “absolutely terrified to go into a Zoom meeting or conference and have a conversation with someone.”

There’s a scientific reason those negative messages stick so hard. “Our mind is wired to keep us safe, and that negative comment can be perceived as a threat,” Misty explains. “Your mind thinks it’s unsafe, so it circles around it like crazy to figure out how to be safe.”

But what makes the situation even more complicated is that the systems around us compound these struggles. Men experience imposter syndrome too, but they tend to move through it faster. She shares a telling example of a male head of sales who was competing against a woman with more experience for a VP role. Despite his “massive anxiety,” he got the job because the hiring committee saw themselves in him.

“We internalize a lot of the external conversations,” Misty observes. “How did those even become internal conversations? We weren’t born with that.”

Building Your Action Plan for Breaking Through

Understanding why you’re muted is important, but your brain needs more than awareness. It needs concrete action.

“A lot of people say just start thinking positive. Just think happy, joyful thoughts and counteract it,” Misty says. “That is so difficult. Your body and your mind are so much better when they have a specific action to take.”

When Misty finds herself stuck on a presentation, procrastinating instead of working, she has a diagnostic process. She asks herself, Is it the people making her nervous? Is it her skill set? Does she lack confidence in how she’ll show up? Or is it the overall situation causing anxiety?

“Once I have an action plan, because I’ve focused on where that anxiety is coming from, then I can move forward and I stop procrastinating,” she explains. Often she’ll discover something specific. “I don’t feel strong about my opener. Let me fix that.”

The procrastination itself becomes information. For Misty, it’s housework. Suddenly, folding laundry seems urgent. For Questian, it’s doomscrolling. “I’ll be working and my brain will just come to a moment where I stop, and then all of a sudden I find myself on my phone.”

Nancy, who describes herself as a “cognitive behavioral therapy nerd,” points out that you have to notice yourself being in anxiety before you can address it. “You have to notice that it’s happening, which takes a lot of practice and honestly, a lot of friends who can see it in you.”

Misty shares two powerful techniques for reframing negative self-talk:

  1. The Best Friend Technique. When negative self-talk starts, Misty literally names it after her best friend Christina. “To me, she’s my biggest supporter. She’s my cheerleader. She also will give it to me honestly if I’m not doing something right.” Christina would never say the brutal things that inner voice dishes out. “We truly talk to ourselves worse than we would talk to our best friend.”
  2. The Childhood Photo Technique. Years ago, Misty took a class that had participants put a picture of themselves as a child next to their bed. “Anytime we had that negative self-talk, we would see our younger self and go, ‘Would you say that to this little girl?”‘ The protective instinct kicks in immediately.

Questian loves this approach. “We’re all still that little girl inside, right?” And as Misty points out, that little girl “would be so impressed with how far you’ve made it, who couldn’t even dream of where you are and what you’re doing.”

Sometimes, hitting bottom provides the clearest view. Questian shares that after a year of family challenges, loss, and professional setbacks with nonprofits losing funding, she recently told someone, “I feel like a failure.”

But the next day, she had clarity. “Here are the things I have to take a step back from,” she told Nancy. “I need to do it so I can focus on these other areas.”

“You got clarity when you saw that low point happen,” Nancy observed. “If those things are really the most important to you, then you need to focus on those.”

The reframe matters. Failure becomes information about what needs to change.

The Power of Community and Authentic Self-Promotion

Individual techniques can transform how you handle fear and self-doubt. But the people you surround yourself with are the accelerator.

“If you surround yourself with people who believe in you and think you are the sun, moon and stars, then that will be contagious to you. And it’s based in reality because they see the work you put in,” Misty explains. “If you surround yourself with doubters, then that’s what you start to believe.”

The key phrase is “based in reality.” This isn’t about empty cheerleading. Nancy demonstrates authentic support when she tells Questian, “You wrote that 100-minute session for the main stage at the Women Who Count conference on sexual harassment. You changed lives. I have no doubt that you changed lives with that.”

Questian knows Nancy means it because, as she puts it, “You will tell me if I’m full of shit.”

Now for the uncomfortable part: self-promotion.

“I know for the podcast to be successful, for Ask a CPA to be successful, for the work I’m doing as a public speaker to be successful, I need to self-promote,” Nancy admits. “But I am turned off by self-promotion. It’s icky.”

Questian adds, “We were told when we were little girls, don’t brag. You’re not allowed to brag. Don’t talk about yourself too much.”

“There are so many people out there to tell you no. Do not be the first one to say it,” Misty says, offering a powerful reframe. You’re not promoting to everyone. “You’re doing it for that one person who needs your services. They need to hear what you have to say on this podcast. They need that little bit of validation to say, ‘I can do this too.'”

When Nancy and Questian promote She Counts, they’re saying, “Hey, there’s a space for you where you count.” That’s not self-promotion; it’s service.

Self-affirmation needs evidence, though. “We don’t take enough proof points that we didn’t die doing something,” Misty points out. You posted on social media and didn’t die. You presented to the board and didn’t die. Each survival is data your brain needs.

The final lesson is to stop copying others. “We are such unique individuals. Every single one of us brings something totally different to the table,” Misty says. “Yet any time we want to show up, we want to look at who else was successful and follow that to the T so much that we forget our own voice.”

Instead, she’s taking an upholstery class and consuming content outside her niche, finding what excites her so she can bring something authentically new to her work.

Your Turn to Unmute

Questian’s transformation tells us what’s possible. She went from being terrified to speak in a Zoom meeting to presenting to 400 people on a main stage (twice). “Now I won’t shut up,” she jokes. But that’s not a problem. It’s proof that unmuting works.

The conversation makes several things clear:

  • Unmuting is about becoming who you want to be, not who others expect
  • Your brain’s negativity bias isn’t broken; it’s overprotective
  • Vague positivity doesn’t work; you need specific action plans
  • How you talk to yourself matters. Would you say those things to your childhood self?
  • Real community provides honest feedback and genuine support
  • Self-promotion serves those who need what you offer

Brené Brown, whom Nancy recently met at Intuit Connect (and gave a She Counts pin!), puts it perfectly: “When we screw up or fall down, many of us talk to ourselves in ways that we would never talk to someone we love and respect. Talking to ourselves from self-love and self-respect is a practice.”

Your homework is to notice when your inner critic pipes up and answer it the way you’d answer your best friend.

If you’re ready to start your unmuting journey, Misty’s Theatre of Public Speaking women’s cohort starts the first Wednesday of March, and seats are already half full. There’s also a beginner’s course for those who need foundational help before jumping into live sessions.

Listen to the full episode for the complete conversation, including the vulnerable moments, practical techniques, and the kind of honest talk that makes She Counts a valuable resource for women in accounting.

Beyond the Policy Binder: Building Workplaces Where Women Actually Feel Safe

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“I ended up leaving that company by choice because I did not feel comfortable with him still there,” audience member Kimberly shared, her voice steady but carrying the weight of a difficult decision. “I didn’t want to go to court. But if I prevented this from happening to anyone else, that was enough for me to speak up so I could prevent some other young woman from ever going through that again.”

This powerful moment came during Part Two of a special She Counts podcast episode, recorded live on the main stage at the Accounting & Financial Women’s Alliance (AFWA) Women Who Count conference. Hosts Nancy McClelland and Questian Telka called it their best episode yet, bringing together employment attorney Kami Hoskins and HR expert Julie Thiel for an unfiltered two-hour CPE session about sexual harassment in accounting.

“Seeing all those faces in the audience and hearing from women who’ve been directly impacted by sexual harassment, it was everything I hoped it would be,” Nancy reflected. The discussion tackled the issue from multiple angles, including employees facing uncomfortable situations, employers trying to build better cultures, and small business owners managing client relationships.

The Real Goal is to Stop the Behavior, Not Destroy Careers

One revelation from the session was understanding what actually happens when somebody reports harassment. Many women fear reporting because they don’t want to destroy someone’s career or face retaliation.

“The goal of a good investigation is for the behavior to stop,” Kami explained. “It’s not to put the person in the public square and flog them. It’s not to cause them physical harm or to embarrass or shame them. It’s to stop the behavior.”

Sometimes extreme behavior requires termination. But often, intervention works, behavior stops, and everyone moves forward. This reframing matters because reporting helps create a workplace where everyone can do their jobs.

Harassment from clients and vendors matters just as much as harassment from coworkers. Julie emphasized that protection extends beyond your own company walls. “You are protected both within your company and in how you’re interacting with others as well,” she said. The investigation process and standards don’t change because the harasser works elsewhere.

When Nancy asked how many audience members were managers or supervisors, about 80% raised their hands. This matters because supervisors are legally obligated to report harassment they witness or hear about, even if the affected employee hasn’t complained.

“The supervisor can get the message to the Human Resources department,” Kami noted. “It doesn’t have to be the employees themselves. It’s on all of us to make sure that information gets to this function.”

Simple Words That Stop Bad Behavior

The experts shared surprisingly simple strategies for interrupting inappropriate behavior before it escalates. You don’t need a confrontational script or perfect comeback.

“It’s always easier to interrupt bad behaviors when they’re sort of lower level,” Kami explained. When someone makes a weird comment or inappropriate joke, small responses like “What?,” “That was weird,” “Awkward,” or even a pointed look can work.

Julie’s favorite intervention might be the most powerful: “What did you mean by that?”

“Often, people aren’t really thinking deeply about what they’re saying,” Julie explained. “That question gives them a pause to reflect again.”

Nancy shared a story that showed exactly why these tools matter. At an accounting conference earlier in the year, a woman made an extremely inappropriate sexual comment to a man in front of a group. The comment was so explicit Nancy wouldn’t repeat it on air.

“We were all just stunned,” Nancy recalled. “If a man had said that to a woman, there is just no way they would have gotten away with it. But we were just all so stunned because it was a woman saying it to a man. None of us knew what to say.”

Looking back, “What did you mean by that?” would have been perfect. Instead, Nancy managed only “Awkward,” which, the experts agreed, also works.

Julie noted that conferences pose particular risks. “When people are relaxed and in informal settings, those are often the situations where they make bad decisions.” Her advice is to stay self-aware. Check in with yourself about how you feel and whether anyone seems uncomfortable.

Culture Beats Policy Every Time

The most powerful moment came when another audience member, Katie, shared her experience at a nonprofit healthcare company. Despite being almost all women with male leadership, everyone felt comfortable because of one consistent practice.

“They called it the tone from the top,” Katie explained. “Every single meeting started with a tone at the top, coming from the board members and from the executive leadership.”

Even during days with 13 budget meetings, each one began with acknowledging company values and recognizing someone who exemplified them. This wasn’t performative; it was how the organization operated.

Kami shared why this works. “I don’t think leaders understand how often employees need to hear the message. It’s not something that you can hear once a year or twice a year. Employees need repetition.”

The discussion revealed a critical gap in leadership training in most organizations. “Most leaders get put into leadership positions without any training,” Julie observed. “It’s like, ‘Good luck in the deep end of the pool!’”

Nancy illustrated this with a story from her husband’s job at Microsoft. A colleague discovered he’d been promoted to manager when someone said, “I guess I report to you now.” An email had announced it to his new team, but nobody had told him first.

“You’re taking somebody who’s an introverted software developer who’s very good at technical work, and now he is managing people,” Nancy said. These preparation gaps contribute to cultures where harassment can flourish.

Real Questions, Real Challenges

The audience Q&A highlighted the complex realities women face. An anonymous question asked about an executive who had asked if her “boobs were fake.” She never reported him because of his position.

“Any comments about anyone’s body for any reason are not cool,” Julie responded firmly. Kami added that while a judge or jury determines if something legally constitutes harassment, it’s clearly “problematic behavior that should not have happened.”

For those fearing powerful harassers, Kami noted many employers have anonymous ethics helplines. “Having been on the inside of a legal department, I can tell you a lot of work goes into maintaining anonymity.”

Michelle, a volunteer firefighter, raised another challenge: inadequate investigations in volunteer organizations. She described a situation where someone was falsely accused, and the accused faced immediate threats of expulsion before any investigation.

“That’s why that investigation is so critical,” Kami responded. “We want to do good fact-gathering before we make decisions about what to do next.”

Kimberly asked about the “he said, she said” problem, when harassment happens privately with no witnesses or proof. “How do you prove that?” she asked, describing her own experience reporting someone in power.

“If there’s no reason for me not to believe you, I would still address it,” Julie reassured her. She explained that HR’s job is to remain neutral and hold everyone accountable. Even without proof, strategies exist to ensure behavior doesn’t continue, such as never being alone with that person again, check-ins, and accountability measures.

“If there’s no proof, it’s hard to win in court,” Kami acknowledged. “But that doesn’t mean there aren’t a whole other universe of resolutions available to ensure the behavior stops.”

Resources for Every Organization Size

When Nancy asked about resources for small firms that don’t have an HR department, Julie recommended fractional and outsourced support. Just as firms use fractional CFOs, they can access fractional HR and legal expertise. “Building that relationship can be important,” Julie advised. “This isn’t the kind of stuff you want to guess about.”

For those needing to escalate beyond their employer, resources include:

  • The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) at the federal level
  • State civil rights divisions
  • Anonymous ethics helplines within larger companies
  • Employment attorneys for serious cases

Kami emphasized starting with your employer when possible, but “there’s always opportunities to go outside of the organization.”

Measuring What Matters

For an audience of accounting professionals, Kami offered data-driven accountability. “You can actually look at the data and see if your culture is working for you.”

Key metrics include:

  • Retention rates
  • Efficiency metrics
  • Promotion patterns across genders
  • Pay equity (“same role, same experience, different comp?”)

“In addition to all the warm and fuzzy stuff,” Kami said, “there are really tactical, measurable metrics organizations can look at to make sure they’re keeping themselves honest.”

Your Voice Is Your Power

The session closed with Questian sharing a quote from Melinda Gates. “Women speaking up for themselves is the strongest force we have to change the world.”

Julie’s admission resonated throughout the room. “I was 50 learning how to find my voice, and I am still finding my voice at 55.” Finding your voice is an ongoing practice that gets stronger with use.

For women in accounting firms, corporations, or running their own practices, these insights offer a path forward. Not just policies on paper, but real cultural change that makes speaking up safe and normal.

Listen to both parts of this special She Counts episode to hear the full conversation, including more audience questions and expert guidance. Follow She Counts on LinkedIn to join the conversation about creating workplaces where women don’t have to choose between their safety and their careers.

Because as Kimberly’s story reminds us, no woman should have to leave a job she loves to escape harassment. It’s time to change the culture, not just the policy.

Knowing Every Harassment Policy Won’t Save You When It Actually Happens

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An HR expert with decades of experience found herself doing something she never expected: hiding from a retiree who kept asking for hugs. Despite her master’s degree in human resources and years of training others on harassment prevention, she went along with the unwanted contact until she caught herself actively avoiding him in the building.

“What is going on here?” Julie Thiel finally asked herself.

Julie shared this moment of clarity during a live recording of the She Counts podcast at the AFWA Women Who Count conference in Mesa, Arizona. Over 100 women in accounting filled the main stage room to tackle one of the profession’s most uncomfortable topics with Julie, hosts Questian Telka and Nancy McClelland, and employment attorney Kami Hoskins.

As the first of a two-part podcast series recorded live at the session shows, knowing every policy and law doesn’t protect you from freezing when harassment actually happens.

The Gap Between Knowledge and Action

Julie’s credentials should have been enough. She has a psychology degree, a Master’s in HR and years of experience conducting investigations and leading training sessions. She knew all the best practices.

None of it helped when the retiree walked past her office.

“Julie, can I get a hug?” seemed harmless at first so she said yes. He visited periodically, always stopping by with the same request. She kept agreeing.

Then she noticed her own troubling behavior.

“Anytime I saw him coming into the building, I would start going the other way,” Julie told the audience. “I found myself in a position where I felt uncomfortable hugging him. I didn’t want to hug him anymore.”

The woman who’d trained countless others was doing exactly what she’d tell them not to do: complying with unwanted contact, then avoiding the person instead of addressing it.

“I want you to know that we’re all in the same boat when it comes to this topic,” she said.

The session proved her point in real time. While Julie shared her story, Nancy had a sudden realization.

“It happened to me earlier today,” Nancy admitted. “Somebody said something really inappropriate related to the fact that we were going to be talking about this topic on the stage, and I laughed.”

She paused, processing the irony of laughing off harassment while preparing to discuss harassment prevention.

“I’m going to go back to that person and say, ‘hey, you know what? I shouldn’t have laughed there because that was a really good opportunity for me to teach you that it’s not okay to say things like that.’”

If experts freeze and laugh off inappropriate comments, what’s really happening? It stems from how deeply women are conditioned to keep everyone comfortable—often at their own expense.

Why We’re Conditioned to Comply

The disconnect between knowledge and action isn’t personal failure. It’s social programming that starts before anyone enters the workforce.

“We’re so conditioned to smile and laugh it off,” Questian observed. “To overlook things that bother us in order to de-escalate.”

Women learn early to smooth things over and prioritize others’ comfort. By the time we enter professional environments, these responses are automatic. They kick in before we register something is wrong.

Julie acknowledged that comfort levels vary. “I’m sure some people would think, ‘No big deal. I’m happy to hug him.’ But for me, I had to pay attention to that inner pause.”

That “inner pause” is the moment something feels off before our conditioning overrides it. Learning to recognize and trust that pause is where real work begins.

Kami reframed the challenge. “This stuff takes practice. It’s not a muscle we’re going to have overnight. The more you do it, the stronger your muscle gets and the easier it gets.”

She emphasized self-compassion. “We need to have a little grace and forgiveness for ourselves. If we sometimes laugh because we felt unsafe or needed to de-escalate a situation, that’s okay. Just keep practicing.”

The audience’s responses confirmed how much work remains. When asked how they’d feel about speaking up if they experienced or witnessed harassment, their word cloud was revealing. “Uncomfortable” dominated the screen, followed by scared, hesitant, and nervous.

But some responded with “confident” and “empowered,” proof that building this muscle is possible. Unexpectedly, “empathy” and “responsibility” also appeared, suggesting women felt duty to speak up for others even when speaking for themselves felt impossible.

Understanding the Spectrum of Harassment

Sexual harassment ranges from uncomfortable requests to explicit threats. Understanding this spectrum helps us recognize harassment even when it doesn’t match our mental image.

Kami emphasized the word “unwelcome.”

“Is the behavior unwelcome? If it’s unwelcome, it’s probably a problem,” she explained. “It doesn’t matter whether someone intended harm or whether others would be bothered. What matters is whether the behavior is unwelcome to you.”

The session’s two stories illustrated this spectrum perfectly.

Julie’s experience involved a retiree with no power over her employment. His hug requests started casually without explicit threats. No quid pro quo existed, yet the unwelcome behavior affected her enough that she avoided parts of her workplace.

A listener’s submitted story painted a darker picture. Her supervisor at a large accounting firm repeatedly asked her to lunch, then dinner, then begged her to spend time outside work. During layoff discussions, he made it explicit: “I have feelings for you. I want you to go out with me. I can help make sure you don’t get laid off.”

“That is a very different kind of sexual harassment than what Julie shared with us,” Nancy said, noting the contrast. I don’t know that I would have heard Julie’s story and thought, that’s sexual harassment.”

Both involved unwelcome behavior. Both deserved addressing. But they fall into different legal categories.

“The story you shared is an example of quid pro quo harassment, Latin meaning ‘something for something,’” Kami explained. “That’s when a person in a supervisory capacity conditions employment on being subjected to sexual harassment.”

This legal distinction matters for understanding options, but shouldn’t determine whether you speak up. Behavior can violate company policy without necessarily creating a legal claim.

“It doesn’t mean we should keep it to ourselves,” Kami emphasized. “We should still share that information and give our employer the opportunity to correct the behavior.”

What the Numbers Tell Us

The session’s polling data was sobering. While 37% of women nationally report experiencing sexual harassment according to McKinsey’s Women in the Workplace 2024, the accounting professionals in the room showed higher rates.

About 44% had personally experienced sexual harassment. Another 31% knew someone who had. Only about 20% had neither experienced it nor knew anyone who had.

“Ours was closer to 50%,” Nancy observed, noting the accounting profession appeared to exceed national averages.

Whether from self-selection or something specific about accounting, these numbers demand attention. They represent colleagues, partners, and sometimes ourselves.

Building Strength for Next Time

Traditional training rarely acknowledges that knowing the right answer and doing it in real time are different skills. Knowledge doesn’t equal action, our conditioning runs deep, and harassment exists on a spectrum where “unwelcome” is the standard that matters. Most importantly, boundary-setting is a muscle requiring practice, not perfection.

For women in accounting, these insights matter. We’re not failing because we don’t know policies. We’re struggling because we haven’t practiced the skills in real situations.

The goal isn’t perfection; it’s shrinking the gap between what we know and what we do. It’s making “uncomfortable” smaller on that word cloud while “confident” and “empowered” grow.

This conversation continues in part two, with practical reporting strategies, what actually happens when you go to HR, and navigating harassment as employees, employers, and business owners.

Listen to the full episode and return for part two. These women are building the roadmap we all need.

Resources for those experiencing harassment:

  • National Sexual Assault Hotline: 1-800-656-4673
  • National Domestic Violence Hotline: 1-800-799-7233
  • National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline: 988